Unmanned airliners
11-25-2009, 06:39 AM
#51
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Finally
DE727UPS,
Finally you show up. I have been running a muck here !!
What does a guy have to do to get your attention these days? Are there really that many sad sacks on APC anymore? I fear that I am I getting lost in the fray of disgruntled pilots.
Skyhigh
Finally you show up. I have been running a muck here !!
What does a guy have to do to get your attention these days? Are there really that many sad sacks on APC anymore? I fear that I am I getting lost in the fray of disgruntled pilots.
Skyhigh
11-25-2009, 06:48 AM
#52
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
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Good Point
DE727UPS brings up a very good point that helps to bring me to a conclusion.
My purpose here is not to make anyone feel bad about being a pilot in a modern automated plane but to point out that there are few restrictions to the professions anymore. As time goes by a pilot is not really building much value in their career. It really stinks to get laid off. pilot has few options and none of them are good. It is nearly impossible for a senior pilot to be able to replace an airline income once it is lost.
Unless however they are willing to work at the dump.
Skyhigh
My purpose here is not to make anyone feel bad about being a pilot in a modern automated plane but to point out that there are few restrictions to the professions anymore. As time goes by a pilot is not really building much value in their career. It really stinks to get laid off. pilot has few options and none of them are good. It is nearly impossible for a senior pilot to be able to replace an airline income once it is lost.
Unless however they are willing to work at the dump.
Skyhigh
11-25-2009, 07:19 AM
#53
No one's home
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
My purpose here is not to make anyone feel bad about being a pilot in a modern automated plane but to point out that there are few restrictions to the professions anymore.
In the training dept, I found the guys who relied strictly on the automation were real weak sisters (sorry for the old term) and the guys who could use their knowledge and THINK had a walk in the park.
Is there a heavy reliance on automation that induces one to sit back and vegetate? No doubt. But it is up to the individual to have personal standards that exceed the minimum.
And finally, as noted earlier, when the automation does fail, it usually fails in a very unpredictable way. The flier who is the robot is toast. The AVIATOR still has a chance.
Happy Thanksgiving to all..
11-25-2009, 10:02 AM
#54
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Joined APC: May 2005
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Another view
Originally Posted by III Corps
You said in a post standardization, training and automation has created a non-thinking robot that just follows procedures. I found that in an highly automated aircraft, one had to study even more to understand all the defaults and assumptions that were built in the automation. For example, the Boeings default to speed in a descent, Airbus defaults to a Vertical speed (if I remember correctly).
In the training dept, I found the guys who relied strictly on the automation were real weak sisters (sorry for the old term) and the guys who could use their knowledge and THINK had a walk in the park.
Is there a heavy reliance on automation that induces one to sit back and vegetate? No doubt. But it is up to the individual to have personal standards that exceed the minimum.
And finally, as noted earlier, when the automation does fail, it usually fails in a very unpredictable way. The flier who is the robot is toast. The AVIATOR still has a chance.
Happy Thanksgiving to all..
In the training dept, I found the guys who relied strictly on the automation were real weak sisters (sorry for the old term) and the guys who could use their knowledge and THINK had a walk in the park.
Is there a heavy reliance on automation that induces one to sit back and vegetate? No doubt. But it is up to the individual to have personal standards that exceed the minimum.
And finally, as noted earlier, when the automation does fail, it usually fails in a very unpredictable way. The flier who is the robot is toast. The AVIATOR still has a chance.
Happy Thanksgiving to all..
I was involved with training as well. The trend I noticed was that systems have become so complex that airlines are not going very deep into teaching them anymore. A pilot is given a cartoon picture of a general depiction of how a system works and that is all. A typical line pilot does not need to reach an engineers level of understanding when there is little they can do about it anyway.
If something goes wrong just follow the checklist. More often I have seen pilots make matters worse when they try and trouble shoot a situation. It is true that going the extra mile can help a pilot at times however what is the benefit to the individual in doing that? A pilot only needs to be able to pass the check ride not to be able to re-engineer the plane. Polluting the situation with layers of irrelevant information can make matters worse. For the most part mindless button pushing is good enough.
If something does not react how you think it shoud then start punching buttons until it does or call maintenance control. Why should a pilot be taught anything more?
Skyhigh
11-25-2009, 04:24 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
DE727UPS brings up a very good point that helps to bring me to a conclusion.
My purpose here is not to make anyone feel bad about being a pilot in a modern automated plane but to point out that there are few restrictions to the professions anymore.As time goes by a pilot is not really building much value in their career. It really stinks to get laid off. pilot has few options and none of them are good. It is nearly impossible for a senior pilot to be able to replace an airline income once it is lost.
Unless however they are willing to work at the dump.
Skyhigh
My purpose here is not to make anyone feel bad about being a pilot in a modern automated plane but to point out that there are few restrictions to the professions anymore.As time goes by a pilot is not really building much value in their career. It really stinks to get laid off. pilot has few options and none of them are good. It is nearly impossible for a senior pilot to be able to replace an airline income once it is lost.
Unless however they are willing to work at the dump.
Skyhigh
11-25-2009, 04:27 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by de727ups
"Working at LCC, I can see where your resentment and bitterness comes form."
Deadhead, Skyhigh failed to correct you in his follow on post, so I feel the need to bring it up. That he let you remain misinformed is typical, and why he should hold no credibility here. Posting in a manner to misinform is par for the course for Skyhigh. If you follow his stuff it becomes obvious...
"A lot of what I write here is intented as humor and most do not get it." Skyhigh 4/08/09
"I am not trying to criticize anyone. Just trying to get people to think about a few things." Skyhigh 12/26/08
"It takes more of a sacrifice to become professionally licensed to cut hair than it does to become an airline pilot." Skyhigh 3/3/09
I could go on....
Skyhigh worked for Horizon Air as an F/O and went to National Airlines as a 757 F/O.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Airlines_(N7)
They were a small, non-union, start up out of LAS flying 757's. Had nothing to do with US Airways or America West.
Skyhigh walked away from the career, for his own good reasons, and his goal here is to bash the career to rationalize his decision to walk away. He attempts to bring the rest of us down to his level of misery as a way to make himself feel like he made the right choice. It's a silly thing to do cause his "right choice" is a moving target. It was right for him and more power to him for making it. However, what is rarely mentioned at these boards, is there are many, many, happy pilots doing a job they knew they were getting into and doing a job they think is worthy, all things considered. It worked out darn well for me.
And I could go on, and on, but I'll spare Sky the agony....
Deadhead, Skyhigh failed to correct you in his follow on post, so I feel the need to bring it up. That he let you remain misinformed is typical, and why he should hold no credibility here. Posting in a manner to misinform is par for the course for Skyhigh. If you follow his stuff it becomes obvious...
"A lot of what I write here is intented as humor and most do not get it." Skyhigh 4/08/09
"I am not trying to criticize anyone. Just trying to get people to think about a few things." Skyhigh 12/26/08
"It takes more of a sacrifice to become professionally licensed to cut hair than it does to become an airline pilot." Skyhigh 3/3/09
I could go on....
Skyhigh worked for Horizon Air as an F/O and went to National Airlines as a 757 F/O.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Airlines_(N7)
They were a small, non-union, start up out of LAS flying 757's. Had nothing to do with US Airways or America West.
Skyhigh walked away from the career, for his own good reasons, and his goal here is to bash the career to rationalize his decision to walk away. He attempts to bring the rest of us down to his level of misery as a way to make himself feel like he made the right choice. It's a silly thing to do cause his "right choice" is a moving target. It was right for him and more power to him for making it. However, what is rarely mentioned at these boards, is there are many, many, happy pilots doing a job they knew they were getting into and doing a job they think is worthy, all things considered. It worked out darn well for me.
And I could go on, and on, but I'll spare Sky the agony....
I don't appreciate being patronized by people, so it's nice to know when I am.
11-26-2009, 05:45 AM
#57
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Don't address the issue
Originally Posted by DeadHead
Thanks, De727ups
I don't appreciate being patronized by people, so it's nice to know when I am.
I don't appreciate being patronized by people, so it's nice to know when I am.
Skyhigh
11-26-2009, 06:25 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
Attacks
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
It is a cheap defense to avoid the issue and to try and attack the man.
11-26-2009, 06:34 AM
#59
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The issue
Originally Posted by tomgoodman
Yes, it would be cheap indeed to call pilots "immature", "irresponsible", "sociopaths", "automatons", "button-pushing monkeys", and so on. Know anyone who has done that?
Skyhigh
11-26-2009, 07:37 AM
#60
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
In my posts I am addressing traits of the profession and not the individual.
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
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