sinkrate3278

Hey guys!

This has been bugging me for sometime and i can't decide if it's a bad idea or not.

I generally fly very square patterns under normal conditions (I.e. roll wings level on the base leg before turning final).

However, the deeper I'm getting in this game, the more pilots I meet whom basically tell me to skip the roll out on base leg and instead make a continuous turn from downwind to final on all patterns. That basically keeps the downwind leg closer to the runway and is probably a bit easier on the pax?

After I've heard this I've been noticing other pilots do the same rather inconsistently on many different (and identical) types of aircraft.

Under normal conditions, is it generally a better practice to fly like this or would you recommend I keep them squared whenever possible?

I don't fly jets, but do you ever "skip" the base leg rollout on them too?

Thanks guys and merry Christmas - especially those going to work today!

TheFly

If you are refering to small airports, in my experience squaring the turn to final would most times lead to an overshooting of final.

Sunny1

In Navy flight training you are taught to do a continuous turn on the crosswind to downwind leg, and then also when you make your turn off the downwind it is one continuous turn to final. You will of course have to make adjustments for an overshooting or undershooting crosswind, but after a few trips in the pattern you should have it figured out. The main advantage of this technique is that it allows you to fly a tighter pattern, and when you are doing 20 to 30 T&G's flying a tighter pattern will get you more passes in the pattern when you have only a set amount of time to do pattern work.

JamesNoBrakes

Couple things:

It's a good way to get plowed into by an airplane on final, since your attention is towards the runway and you are likely blocking out a huge portion of the sky with your wing the entire time where you might notice peripheral movement.

Given a little bit of tailwind on base, it's a very easy way to overshoot final, since you're not allowing any "wiggle-room" in there to allow for the wind, this also helps to set you up for an extremely steep base to final turn and the possible "stall-spin" scenario turning final.

The idea that you "have to fly so close that you can glide to the runway" screws up approaches and patterns in other ways. You can relatively easily make it to the runway in most situations by making a direct b-line to the runway, and in many cases on downwind you still got to extend out some so you don't overshoot on final. People tend to forget that you have to "string out" the pattern and the glide-distance. A lot of light airplanes will go ~1.5 miles for 1000', which means you don't have to be flying a .25 mile pattern, in fact those tight patterns will cause endless trouble when you start to get any tailwind and try to adjust. You're setting yourself up for an over-run/loss-of-control/runway departure by coming in completely power off with flaps. It's fun to do sometimes, but making the reason "so I can glide to the runway" isn't a great one IMO.

They have segments of traffic patterns for a reason. Lots of pilots like to ignore these reasons and do their own thing, which hurts safety, but it's a good idea to do it "the right way", then if you get into trouble you can go back and show that you were doing it the right way at least.

Jets traditionally don't fly patterns. They sometimes do circling approaches, which are a bit different, due to the instrument conditions and usual lack of other traffic. Jets usually fly instrument approaches, even in daytime. When they are flying visual approaches, they are often still using some form of guidance. Not always, but it's common and it's another measure of safety for them, because it gives them something else they can check their progress with. There are plenty of jets and turboprops that do fly patterns, and most of the time they do fly square patterns, or come in on base as directed, etc. Often air traffic control will put them on straight in approaches and make everyone else extend or hold, because they move at a much different speed than everything else. It's not real common for jets to be flying at uncontrolled fields or just doing visual approaches and landings. Yes, they do, but not often. If you ever look at how air-traffic control radar-vectors the big aircraft at big airports, they very often do move them around in the "square" pattern, although it's much bigger (doesn't have much to do with this though). So what is safe and normal in a jet isn't the same as in a light airplane flying in a pattern.

I would say the reason a lot of pilots do this in practice is that they don't realize where their aircraft is drifting on the downwind. They don't understand how to maintain a constant ground track. They don't adequately plan for the turn radius of the airplane and the wind effects. They get their attention centered on the runway because it's the "center of attention" (see the airplane that plowed into the truck that was crossing short of final), so they don't realize what's happening in the turns and where the airplane is going. A tell-tale sign is sitting next to a pilot and watching where he looks. If he is spending most of the time looking in a direction other than where he's going (like fixated left, because that's where the runway is), that is generally bad and I'd run away! These all lead up to having to make the "constant turn". These are all errors.

TheFly

I should clarify my previous post...it was refering to large turbo props and jets. Small piston driven aircraft shouldn't have the problem of overshooting final.

ToastAir

Ever hear of a cross control stall? It has brought a sad end to many light piston aircraft trying to salvage the overshoot. JamesNoBrakes makes a lot of good points. I'm not saying to never do it, a 180 turn to final is a precision maneuver. I teach my students to roll wings level on base, check trim, glide path,power and airspeed against the standard. It doesn't need to be much of a base but it gives chance to make adjustments.

TheFly

Do you fly turbine aircraft or instruct in pistons?

FlyerJosh

+1. And I also agree that JamesNoBrakes makes good points.

I'm personally a big advocate for wings level at least a second while on base so that you can clear final.

N9373M

Ding Ding Ding - winner! One last check for traffic on final.

Ewfflyer

Exactly, even at a tower controlled airport. There's always the chance of someone coming in and not being on freq. My home airport gets crappy and late handoffs from approach to tower. I've had to ask many times after I'm already insides the FAF, just one example.