What does it mean to you to be a union pilot?
10-07-2007, 04:15 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 862
So as an outsider looking in. What am I to gather from all of the recent rhetoric from both sides on multiple QOL/pay issues? It appears we are on the verge of some very contentious times in the industry. I see pilot groups very unhappy with management and at the same time unhappy with the union that represents them. This smells bad!!! Are we at that fed up stage and can expect lots of labor actions to address the dissatisfaction? I believe that no-one wins in an all-out walkout. Just my .02
10-07-2007, 09:00 AM
#12
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Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: non acceptus excretus
Posts: 561
To the topic of nobody wins in an all out walk-out.... That is correct only sort of, in that circumstances have occurred in the past and probably will in the future where you lose more to not walk out... It is much like dealing with the schoolyard bully in that you may have to fight a painful fight with no clear winner in order to make him think twice about bullying you again. Also in the 1940's 1950's 60's and 70's the majority of economic gains in contracts happen on the negotiation immediately subsequent to the one that settled a strike. The political environment or landscape is pretty important also. The current administration would view a labor stoppage as an act of terrorism and all involved would see tremendous pressure from the law enforcement branches under federal control.
10-07-2007, 01:44 PM
#13
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: B-737
Posts: 392
A necessary evil.
Unions: A necessary evil.
This is perhaps the most unfortunate perception that prevails among pilots, and it's a perception that management uses against us. How, you ask?
I will first refer to the "Pilot Personality" story posted on the front page of this web site: (for those who haven't read it)
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/resou...070820246.html
This article originated from an HR office at an airline, not ALPA. Specifically, pilots are emotionally bimodal..right/wrong, black/white, on/off, etc. Management manages our expectations by attacking our unions, not us. "pilots are great guys, they just belong to this nasty union". It's difficult for pilots as a group and as individuals to reconcile with this. As a pilot community, we are identified as highly regarded professionals (regardless of what everybody in this forum believes). On the other hand, we are often attacked in the media through our association with unions. So emotionally we take a "reasonable approach" and discard our nasty association with those bad old unions whom have done some bad things in the past. As if corporate America is as pure as the driven snow.
Unions are not a "necessary evil", atomic bombs are. But both are necessary.
This is perhaps the most unfortunate perception that prevails among pilots, and it's a perception that management uses against us. How, you ask?
I will first refer to the "Pilot Personality" story posted on the front page of this web site: (for those who haven't read it)
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/resou...070820246.html
This article originated from an HR office at an airline, not ALPA. Specifically, pilots are emotionally bimodal..right/wrong, black/white, on/off, etc. Management manages our expectations by attacking our unions, not us. "pilots are great guys, they just belong to this nasty union". It's difficult for pilots as a group and as individuals to reconcile with this. As a pilot community, we are identified as highly regarded professionals (regardless of what everybody in this forum believes). On the other hand, we are often attacked in the media through our association with unions. So emotionally we take a "reasonable approach" and discard our nasty association with those bad old unions whom have done some bad things in the past. As if corporate America is as pure as the driven snow.
Unions are not a "necessary evil", atomic bombs are. But both are necessary.
Last edited by Oldfreightdawg; 10-08-2007 at 12:49 PM.
10-07-2007, 03:39 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: DC9 Capt.
Posts: 108
I'm amazed that no one seems to be listing the obvious: the union is the only thing that lets me tell some overzealous asst chief pilot to pound sand and still have a job next week. Without a union, too close an adherence to safety means that you are outside the fence looking in while some young guy with more guts than brains agrees to do what you find unsafe.
10-07-2007, 05:24 PM
#15
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Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: CRJ-900 FO, Supra left seat
Posts: 303
Originally Posted by Stormy Knight
Without a union, too close an adherence to safety means that you are outside the fence looking in while some young guy with more guts than brains agrees to do what you find unsafe.
10-07-2007, 10:18 PM
#16
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by Stormy Knight
I'm amazed that no one seems to be listing the obvious: the union is the only thing that lets me tell some overzealous asst chief pilot to pound sand and still have a job next week. Without a union, too close an adherence to safety means that you are outside the fence looking in while some young guy with more guts than brains agrees to do what you find unsafe.
10-08-2007, 12:01 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Originally Posted by Stormy Knight
I'm amazed that no one seems to be listing the obvious: the union is the only thing that lets me tell some overzealous asst chief pilot to pound sand and still have a job next week. Without a union, too close an adherence to safety means that you are outside the fence looking in while some young guy with more guts than brains agrees to do what you find unsafe.
"Unions are job protection from overzealous companies that will threaten your job to encourage a crew to fly unsafe or illegally. Having a strong union allows me the comfort to stay legal and safe."
In one case, it was the Fleet Chief Pilot.
Originally Posted by mike734
You've obviously never seen someone get fired for insubordination.
Last edited by SaltyDog; 10-08-2007 at 12:07 AM.
10-08-2007, 04:46 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: DC9 Capt.
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by mike734
You've obviously never seen someone get fired for insubordination.
To Salty Dog- sorry if I failed to read your post closely; I'll try to pay better attention
10-08-2007, 05:54 AM
#20
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: A Big One
Posts: 283
It means you have a voice and a say in what happens with your career.
It means you may have recourse should you be terminated unjustly.
It means you have a legal team to help you.
It means you have a safety team working for improvements that will make the industry safer.
It means you have programs set up so that we can recover from medical problems.
Most of all - ALPA is what you make of it. Stay informed, stay unified and it is amazing what you can accomplish.
Your own union is what YOU make of it....nothing more, nothing less.
It means you may have recourse should you be terminated unjustly.
It means you have a legal team to help you.
It means you have a safety team working for improvements that will make the industry safer.
It means you have programs set up so that we can recover from medical problems.
Most of all - ALPA is what you make of it. Stay informed, stay unified and it is amazing what you can accomplish.
Your own union is what YOU make of it....nothing more, nothing less.
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