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Still, ME..ME..ME!
Originally Posted by Adolphus Coors
(Post 495745)
What sort of blue collar banter is this? How did you get from "unskilled labour" to people not being "team members" and "RJ pilots suck"? I also don't think I referred to the FAs as beneath us either? Just because I said their job was unskilled labour does not mean they are. I said their JOB was, their is a massive difference!!!!!!!
Isn't there a big IBT rally in Jersey you should be at or something? That "unskilled laborer" might just use their body to block your cockpit from a terrorist, restart your heart with an AED, or stand behind you in a picket line, but that doesn't seem to mean much to you in the 1% club. Most think of them as part of the team, and it they're stronger, YOU are stronger.:confused: But it is probably a waste of time to try to explain it to you... Hey, as long as you're represented.... And yes, as a proud trade unionist, like most of your fellow DAL cockpit crewmembers, I have attended ALPA, IBT, and IPA rallies along with nurses trying to organize. Most pilots would wear that as a badge of pride, and you can consider me one of them. I would be proud to wear the APA pin in support for my fellow Americans, aviation workers, and Flight Attendants especially. In Unity, B727DRVR:cool: |
Adolphus, 2 quick questions...
1. Would you be getting a paycheck from Delta if we didn't take care of the customers in the back? 2. Would you work at DL as a pilot without a union? |
Originally Posted by DALFA
(Post 495804)
Adolphus, 2 quick questions...
1. Would you be getting a paycheck from Delta if we didn't take care of the customers in the back? 2. Would you work at DL as a pilot without a union? 1. No thats why we have FAs. They are required by the FAA to be on the airplane. I never said they weren't. 2. YES |
Originally Posted by B727DRVR
(Post 495794)
Adolphus,
That "unskilled laborer" might just use their body to block your cockpit from a terrorist, restart your heart with an AED, or stand behind you in a picket line, but that doesn't seem to mean much to you in the 1% club. Most think of them as part of the team, and it they're stronger, YOU are stronger.:confused: But it is probably a waste of time to try to explain it to you... Hey, as long as you're represented.... And yes, as a proud trade unionist, like most of your fellow DAL cockpit crewmembers, I have attended ALPA, IBT, and IPA rallies along with nurses trying to organize. Most pilots would wear that as a badge of pride, and you can consider me one of them. I would be proud to wear the APA pin in support for my fellow Americans, aviation workers, and Flight Attendants especially. In Unity, B727DRVR:cool: You post your opinion as if they are the norm. You put words in my mouth as if a stated them. You make assumption as if you are psychic. When I call you out on it you respond with BS union propaganda. What gives? Have you had a coherent conversation with anyone but yourself in the last 30 years? |
Besides wearing an AFA pin on your tie, I have seen pilots write 'vote union' on the paper you give us with your names and/or on TATL flight on the map with the tracks on it that you give the 'A'.
You guys might not think this will help, but it really does!!!! I ask you...PLEASE HELP US UNIONIZE, because united we are stronger!!! |
Organizing and unionizing does not mean that your job will be better or your company stronger. There are many examples. UAW is a great one.
While F/As do an important job, the arguments here about what they do are still examples of jobs that are not really skilled/professional labor. A bouncer blocks people from entering a door. I don't think anybody would argue that bouncers are anything but unskilled labor. There are many basic jobs that are given basic first aid training and taught how to use a defibrillator. The truth is that somebody can walk off the street and within a few weeks be fully trained to do the job of FA. Just because you have a lot of coworkers that do the same job as you does not mean that you should be able to hold your company hostage. I believe there is enough competition on both sides of the equation to keep things mostly balanced. There are many companies at which you can be a FA. So, if you don't like the work rules/pay at your company, there are other places to work. The FA can be trained easily enough that the airline should be able to replace a fair enough FAs with whatever the market will accept for pay that they should be able to keep the pay at 'market' price. Just because people are willing to do your job for less money does not mean you should be able to unionize to protect your paycheck. That's bad for the company. It's bad for the country. By the way, I feel the same way about pilots for the most part. The market has told pilots what they are really worth. Many are finally accepting it and making decisions based upon reality. Some are still clinging to their blame of evil management trying to keep labor down. Unionizing can be a great way for a labor group to fix gross inequities in the market. But, you guys keep complaining that your 'brothers' are screwing you by picking up open time and working on their days off, etc. That's not your brother screwing you. that's your brother telling you that the market of labor is willing to work more hours for less money. It isn't what you want to happen. It isn't what you want to hear. But, it's reality. |
Originally Posted by milky
(Post 495917)
Organizing and unionizing does not mean that your job will be better or your company stronger. There are many examples. UAW is a great one.
While F/As do an important job, the arguments here about what they do are still examples of jobs that are not really skilled/professional labor. A bouncer blocks people from entering a door. I don't think anybody would argue that bouncers are anything but unskilled labor. There are many basic jobs that are given basic first aid training and taught how to use a defibrillator. The truth is that somebody can walk off the street and within a few weeks be fully trained to do the job of FA. Just because you have a lot of coworkers that do the same job as you does not mean that you should be able to hold your company hostage. I believe there is enough competition on both sides of the equation to keep things mostly balanced. There are many companies at which you can be a FA. So, if you don't like the work rules/pay at your company, there are other places to work. The FA can be trained easily enough that the airline should be able to replace a fair enough FAs with whatever the market will accept for pay that they should be able to keep the pay at 'market' price. Just because people are willing to do your job for less money does not mean you should be able to unionize to protect your paycheck. That's bad for the company. It's bad for the country. Can anyone be a pilot? Yes. Can anyone be a good pilot? No. Can anyone be a F/A? Yes. Can anyone be a good F/A? No. I know HR works hard at DL to hire the best pilots that apply, and I know HR works hard to hire the best F/As that apply. So we consider ourself professional, just like you do. Earlier this year DL hired about 1500 F/As, DL had received more than 80000 applications, so about 4% of those that applied were hired...I would say we aren't ANYONE. Here is what a fellow F/A wrote... As a professional, our employer depends on us to take on important safety responsibilities. We have unique skills and training to take on complex and sensitive roles. Our work is usually self-directed and requires that we direct and manage passengers. Often our decisions and actions affect the security and well being of others. We follow a professional code, and do what it takes to get the job done right. Which makes it hard to understand why we don’t always get the respect we deserve in the workplace. Senior management has to run the place, that’s true. But shouldn’t they also listen to the flight attendants [safety specialists] who have the expertise to get the work done? Flight Attendants who do not have a union face many employment problems every day: • Lack of job security • Lack of salary protection • Inconsistent treatment • Lack of say in scheduling • No coherent voice in dealing with the employer • No impartial process for resolving complaints • No protection against unfair treatment The workplace has become increasingly more demanding and tenuous a place for professional flight attendants. How did this come about, particularly at a time when “professional workers” are supposed to be gaining importance in our economy? The Professional Workplace Has Changed Flight Attendants have faced unique problems during the restructuring of work over the last decade. Many professional positions have disappeared either through lay-off or attrition as management has used bankruptcy as a means to destroy collective bargaining. Flight Attendants who remain in the workplace have seen their workloads skyrocket with full flights and minimum crew and a decrease in their wages, benefits and retirement. “Despite the trends, some Delta and NWA flight attendants still believe that individual or collegial relations with the employer are most appropriate to professional values. Those values include personal responsibility for work and assignments, independence of action and judgment, and an abiding commitment to a professional code and duties. Unionism is dismissed as a mode of relations that emphasizes collective action rather than individual responsibility, replaces independent judgment with executive or mass decision making, and sacrifices professional responsibility to the picket line.” Unions Complement Professional Values “Having a union can address these problems and enhance professional values in the workplace. The core principles of unionism are consistent with professionalism. Both movements can trace part of their histories to the guild movements where workers with particular sets of skills in common joined together both to protect their control over those skills and to protect their economic position. Many professional codes, for instance, indicate that members have a duty to see that they are adequately compensated for their work.” Rather than being contrary to professional values, a union offers a strong alliance to those values. A union makes it possible for professionals to come together to represent their own interests to their employers, to talk about the unique issues professional flight attendants face, and to deal with the problems that arise in a constantly changing workplace. A professional union allows flight attendants to gain a say in their workplace through negotiation with management. It also allows flight attendants to determine how that say will be expressed. A union is the only guarantee that flight attendants will have a voice in their workplace and that they’ll be regarded as equals in setting the terms and conditions of their work. Joining a union is the only legal guarantee that the employer will consult and negotiate over workplace issues. It’s the only guarantee that the agreements reached with the employer can be enforced quickly and easily. It’s the only guarantee of an impartial process for resolving problems that arise between the employer and professional employees. Individuals alone hold little power, but together their strength and influence will flourish. This is the reason AFA is so important – we give our members strength; we give our members bargaining power; we give our members support; we give our members industry-leading advise, training and advocacy; we give our members a VOICE… DESTINATION: REPRESENTATION |
Originally Posted by DALFA
(Post 495960)
Well if you really want to put it that way, I can go to an accellerated flight program get my commercial and 300 hours and be in the left seat at a regional in 12-15 weeks.
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Originally Posted by DALFA
(Post 495960)
Well if you really want to put it that way, I can go to an accellerated flight program get my commercial and 300 hours and be in the left seat at a regional in 12-15 weeks. But thats not how I or many other look at things, I know that Delta is now the largest airline in the world...and will have some of the most qualified and professional employees. So if you choose to look at your F/As as unskilled labor, then thats all you are going to see. However, if you look at them as people who have an essential role in this undustry and as co-workers...then you would realize that they too should have the same right as you do, and thats the right to have a voice! Airlines primary source of revenue is ticket sales...F/As spend more time trying to make those passengers happy than any other person in the company. Also, you may forget that we are there primarily for your safety and must be able to evacuate an aircraft quickly, we handle medical emergencies, we are babysitters at times, and we do our best to accomodate YOUR needs! Now do you need a bouncer at an establishment? Well last time I checked there is no government regulation that says a certain amount of bouncers must be in the establishment for any customer to come in. So you might want to rethink your position...
Can anyone be a pilot? Yes. Can anyone be a good pilot? No. Can anyone be a F/A? Yes. Can anyone be a good F/A? No. I know HR works hard at DL to hire the best pilots that apply, and I know HR works hard to hire the best F/As that apply. So we consider ourself professional, just like you do. Earlier this year DL hired about 1500 F/As, DL had received more than 80000 applications, so about 4% of those that applied were hired...I would say we aren't ANYONE. Here is what a fellow F/A wrote... As a professional, our employer depends on us to take on important safety responsibilities. We have unique skills and training to take on complex and sensitive roles. Our work is usually self-directed and requires that we direct and manage passengers. Often our decisions and actions affect the security and well being of others. We follow a professional code, and do what it takes to get the job done right. Which makes it hard to understand why we don’t always get the respect we deserve in the workplace. Senior management has to run the place, that’s true. But shouldn’t they also listen to the flight attendants [safety specialists] who have the expertise to get the work done? Flight Attendants who do not have a union face many employment problems every day: • Lack of job security • Lack of salary protection • Inconsistent treatment • Lack of say in scheduling • No coherent voice in dealing with the employer • No impartial process for resolving complaints • No protection against unfair treatment The workplace has become increasingly more demanding and tenuous a place for professional flight attendants. How did this come about, particularly at a time when “professional workers” are supposed to be gaining importance in our economy? The Professional Workplace Has Changed Flight Attendants have faced unique problems during the restructuring of work over the last decade. Many professional positions have disappeared either through lay-off or attrition as management has used bankruptcy as a means to destroy collective bargaining. Flight Attendants who remain in the workplace have seen their workloads skyrocket with full flights and minimum crew and a decrease in their wages, benefits and retirement. “Despite the trends, some Delta and NWA flight attendants still believe that individual or collegial relations with the employer are most appropriate to professional values. Those values include personal responsibility for work and assignments, independence of action and judgment, and an abiding commitment to a professional code and duties. Unionism is dismissed as a mode of relations that emphasizes collective action rather than individual responsibility, replaces independent judgment with executive or mass decision making, and sacrifices professional responsibility to the picket line.” Unions Complement Professional Values “Having a union can address these problems and enhance professional values in the workplace. The core principles of unionism are consistent with professionalism. Both movements can trace part of their histories to the guild movements where workers with particular sets of skills in common joined together both to protect their control over those skills and to protect their economic position. Many professional codes, for instance, indicate that members have a duty to see that they are adequately compensated for their work.” Rather than being contrary to professional values, a union offers a strong alliance to those values. A union makes it possible for professionals to come together to represent their own interests to their employers, to talk about the unique issues professional flight attendants face, and to deal with the problems that arise in a constantly changing workplace. A professional union allows flight attendants to gain a say in their workplace through negotiation with management. It also allows flight attendants to determine how that say will be expressed. A union is the only guarantee that flight attendants will have a voice in their workplace and that they’ll be regarded as equals in setting the terms and conditions of their work. Joining a union is the only legal guarantee that the employer will consult and negotiate over workplace issues. It’s the only guarantee that the agreements reached with the employer can be enforced quickly and easily. It’s the only guarantee of an impartial process for resolving problems that arise between the employer and professional employees. Individuals alone hold little power, but together their strength and influence will flourish. This is the reason AFA is so important – we give our members strength; we give our members bargaining power; we give our members support; we give our members industry-leading advise, training and advocacy; we give our members a VOICE… DESTINATION: REPRESENTATION |
I wasn't trying to turn this into a pilot vs. FA thing. I was trying to say that we are all subject to market forces when it comes to our paychecks. If we ignore the market forces and demand wages at an artificial rate, then our companies fail because they cannot compete in the marketplace. Then, you win higher wages until the day your company closes its door. I know I'm presenting a simplified version and there are some reasons to have the union available to the labor, but the uses usually discussed on here are to hold the company hostage because you believe you're being screwed because your wages do not look the same as the guys at the top of the company.
Pilots and FAs are both a group of workers no different than dispatchers and baggage handlers. Yes, your pay and benefits should differ in each of those groups based on market forces. FAs do not make the same as pilots because the skills and responsibilities are different. FAs don't make the same as baggage handlers for similar reasons. If you think organizing is going to change that, you are just kidding yourself. You may bully the company into some sort of concession if you strike, but you will lose in the long run. I believe that goes for any group. Detroit priced itself out of the market, and you can see how good that turned out for everybody. |
I think most of you missed the point. A few of the early posters got it.
This isn't about whether the DAL FAs should or should not unionize (or be allowed to unionize according to some of you). It about whether the pilot group should publicly support this effort. I don't work for DAL, so I have no dog in this fight. However, an early poster said it best when he said that a majority voted no, and the pilots pushing a union would be going against the wishes of the majority. It's not wise for a labor group to interfere in another labor group's organizational efforts. It's kind of like when you're friends with a couple getting divorced and you take sides and say what a jerk the other spouse is. Then unexpectedly, the couple gets back together and you lose friends because the person you badmouthed is back and you're now the bad guy for badmouthing him. This is what it would be like if the pilots support unionization, but it fails. If the FAs choose to unionize, it's their fight, and their fight only. If the effort goes through or not, the pilots should professionally support the FAs 100%, but let them fight their own fight. That's not being weak, that's being smart. |
DALFA, have you considered that the biggest obstacle is the union you're choosing?
I'm sorry, but AFA is notorious for having "issues". My wife is an AFA member, and I have had a good inside look. I would say that on a national scale AFA is notoriously reckless about pursuing job actions (C.H.A.O.S) with little provocation, for the wrong reasons, and without the support of the other unions. Many times, AFA has pursued illegal CHAOS actions and damaged an airline just because they are angry. They don't seem to exercise due diligence and restraint when they do this. I think they seem to be unnecessarily militant at some times, and unnecessarily weak at other times. And now they merged with the CWA (communications workers)? What's up with that? It would appear they couldn't stand on their own. I also agree with the posters who opined that AFA is more interested in collecting dues. My wife was on medical leave for 11 months, and they still sent her a dues bill, despite being out of work, unpaid. ALPA doesn't even do that! The bottom line, AFA doesn't seem to have any solid safety support structure or representational structure in Washington like most unions. Their chief mission seems to be "screw all of you, we're going to get ours, nyah, nyah". Getting to the point, perhaps you would be better served by trying to organize an in-house union? Or maybe even go with IBT? I suspect that if you DAL FAs continue to court AFA, it will be DOA every time. |
Originally Posted by Jughead
(Post 496131)
Really? Tell me which regional airline puts pilots in the left seat at 300 hours/12-15 weeks. I'll be sure to keep the family off that one. How much flight time and how many weeks of experience do you think the average Delta pilot has when he/she moves to the left seat?
You are reading only what you want to read. I know that EVERY FO here at DL has at least 2000 hours or so, and that everyone in the left seat has at least 6000 hours. Like I said, you guy earned every single dollar you earn...its a shame that some airlines pay you less than Greyhound pays its bus drivers, even if you are an FO on a B1900! I know that every single up up front at DL has TONS of experience, has a college degree, and is qualified to fly that jet. |
This union drive is not to increase pay, increase benefits, increase our overall cost. This is to make sure that WE as a group have a job tomorrow, that WE aren't bullied arount by managment, and that our work rules don't change every week!
For those of you that have forgotten...in the fall of 2005, NWA fought to outsource the international flying at NWA...which would have resulted in 30% of F/As losing their jobs. It was the CBA that prevented that from happening! This is why we need one. This is not about the market, this is about people having jobs and actually being able to put food on the table. At the top of the food chain there are on 2 DL guys left, the others are all NW or former NW...am I worried that DL is going to ship my job over to Ghandi in India? Hell yes I am! They tried it once, whats going to stop them next time if there is no CBA in place. |
Originally Posted by John Pennekamp
(Post 496163)
DALFA, have you considered that the biggest obstacle is the union you're choosing?
I'm sorry, but AFA is notorious for having "issues". My wife is an AFA member, and I have had a good inside look. I would say that on a national scale AFA is notoriously reckless about pursuing job actions (C.H.A.O.S) with little provocation, for the wrong reasons, and without the support of the other unions. Many times, AFA has pursued illegal CHAOS actions and damaged an airline just because they are angry. They don't seem to exercise due diligence and restraint when they do this. I think they seem to be unnecessarily militant at some times, and unnecessarily weak at other times. And now they merged with the CWA (communications workers)? What's up with that? It would appear they couldn't stand on their own. I also agree with the posters who opined that AFA is more interested in collecting dues. My wife was on medical leave for 11 months, and they still sent her a dues bill, despite being out of work, unpaid. ALPA doesn't even do that! The bottom line, AFA doesn't seem to have any solid safety support structure or representational structure in Washington like most unions. Their chief mission seems to be "screw all of you, we're going to get ours, nyah, nyah". Getting to the point, perhaps you would be better served by trying to organize an in-house union? Or maybe even go with IBT? I suspect that if you DAL FAs continue to court AFA, it will be DOA every time. As far as an in-house union...do you know how expensive it is to start an in-house union? Who has that money??? Also, we can't have any other AFL-CIO union on the ballot because they cannot compete against each other! |
Originally Posted by DALFA
(Post 495426)
Wow, I am very surprised to say the least. I view the pilot group as an example that by sticking together you get more done, by making sure that the guy next to you has your back. This is something we are missing as now the largest F/A group in the world, I also believe that we are now going to be watched by every other airline in the world and we have an obbligation to lead the way with improvements to our salary and duty rigs. Management keeps getting millions and we got 3% in July after taking a 45% pay cut. Like I said, I don't hold it against any of you...its your choice. But remember, we have a family to feed just like you do...and most of us have college degrees or some other type of post-secondary education. Once again, I am very surprised to hear this...and have to say that I have not had 1 pilot tell me we should not unionize, actually I have seen pilots with AFA pins on their ties that why I asked. Also remember that there are many of you that have a spose, or other family member that is a F/A...
So far we have...1 yes and.....lots of he!! no... It really bothered me that we didn't support our mechanics in 2005. Ironically, when I came back from furlough, everyone was complaining about the fact that the "replacement" mechanics couldn't find the APU on a DC'9. Hello!! I have flown with a couple of Northwest F/A's who are very vocal about keeping the union. If that is their desire, then I support them. You have to remember that we are in a generation of "If it doesn't affect me, then it screw everyone else!" ie the two wars were in the middle of. It would do us good to change that mind set sooner than later. Back to lurking. |
Originally Posted by DALFA
(Post 496225)
Within the past 12 months Mesa and GLA have hired with 300TT & 30ME...
You are reading only what you want to read. I know that EVERY FO here at DL has at least 2000 hours or so, and that everyone in the left seat has at least 6000 hours. Like I said, you guy earned every single dollar you earn...its a shame that some airlines pay you less than Greyhound pays its bus drivers, even if you are an FO on a B1900! I know that every single up up front at DL has TONS of experience, has a college degree, and is qualified to fly that jet. Yes, we earn every dollar, but pilots, and all employees, are paid with reference to what the market will bear. Low pay is a fact of life in this business. That's the way it works in the first few years of most any job. Even more so if you are a B1900 F/O. I don't want to drive a Greyhound bus, and don't envy their salary...more power to 'em. But I'm glad you know we're qualified to fly the jet. This thread has taken a u-turn from your original intent, but it's slightly insulting to come on a forum full of airline pilots and tell us you could do our job in 12-15 weeks of training and a commercial ticket. |
Once again to fail to grasp on what what the message is. Yes anyone can do my job, but not anyone can do it well. Yes anyone can do your job, but not everyone can do it well.
Flight attendants at regionals make less than at mainline, why? because F/As at mainline usually have higher qualifications for the job. Just like you guys, thats why you get paid more than your regional counterparts. Yes I know aircraft sizes etc... Once again, I am not arguing that every single one of you has earned what you make, and you deserve every single dollar! Yes I feel confident that any pilot at Delta is very capable of landing a 757 in the worst weather conditions, or with an engine out, or whatever the case may be. No I do not feel confident someone with 300 hours can land an RJ at LGA under very bad weather conditions... Thats why there is that big of a spread between someone who just barely meets the qualifications, and a professional. We at DL like to see each other as professionals, and this as a career. On the other hand a 21 year-old with absolutely no work experience that just got hired on at Mesa might see this as a job...and only a job. |
F/A get real.
This is a service job. Like a waiter, you get drinks and pick up trash. If you want to be management apply for it. You dont get rewarded for a PHD if you work at a job that requires a GED.
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Exacly. But does a waiter get more compensation and more respect if he/she works at Mario's Diner or at Le Bernardin New York?
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Originally Posted by chris1987
(Post 496387)
This is a service job. Like a waiter, you get drinks and pick up trash. If you want to be management apply for it. You dont get rewarded for a PHD if you work at a job that requires a GED.
Incoming! Everyone to the bunker! |
Originally Posted by Commando
(Post 495585)
WOW. This thread just shows everyone the TRUE colors of Delta pilots. And it's shameful. As a union member you should support the FA's. The reason it was turned down last time is because the management had free reign to threaten and abuse the system daily.
Wake up. Look at the UPS pilots. Ground workers go out, so did we. Mechanics go out, so did we. Now look at our contract. Because we now have the support of our fellow workers. I just think your worried that the $ pie is just so big, and you dont want one red cent going anywhere but in your wallet. Typical arrogant Delta pilots. And you have to know your talked down about industry wide for the last 20 years because of your superior attitudes. Now go wear that AFA pin!! You say "Look at our contract" okay, think I'll do that. It pails in comparison to what we had just a few years ago. (while we had non-union work groups) It could be reasoned that your company wide union allegiance is why you currently fly for almost $100/hr less than we did 7 years ago on certain equipment. ALPA is a necessary evil in regards to safety. Employees are much more effective, not to mention happy, working in a merit based environment. |
Originally Posted by DALFA
(Post 496378)
Once again to fail to grasp on what what the message is. Yes anyone can do my job, but not anyone can do it well. Yes anyone can do your job, but not everyone can do it well.
Flight attendants at regionals make less than at mainline, why? because F/As at mainline usually have higher qualifications for the job. Just like you guys, thats why you get paid more than your regional counterparts. Yes I know aircraft sizes etc... Once again, I am not arguing that every single one of you has earned what you make, and you deserve every single dollar! Yes I feel confident that any pilot at Delta is very capable of landing a 757 in the worst weather conditions, or with an engine out, or whatever the case may be. No I do not feel confident someone with 300 hours can land an RJ at LGA under very bad weather conditions... Thats why there is that big of a spread between someone who just barely meets the qualifications, and a professional. We at DL like to see each other as professionals, and this as a career. On the other hand a 21 year-old with absolutely no work experience that just got hired on at Mesa might see this as a job...and only a job. It takes at LEAST 9-10 years of experience to even get invited to a Delta Pilot interview. At any given time a Delta pilot has direct control over the lives of 142-300 people, millions of dollars in assets, and billions of dollars in liability. I respect the wonderful and difficult jobs our FA's do but the positions are in NO WAY comparable. Just ask the many who were washed out of military, civilian, or airline pilot training if "anyone can do this job". You'll find your statement demonstrably false. Deez |
You love your F/A's so much you would have let management outsource our international flying to Chinese or Indian nationals like NWA tried to do in 2005?
Do you remember what the only thing was that prevented that from happening? ...and do you remember what union offered support to PFAA while this was going on? Let me refresh your memory! wcco.com - NWA Wants To Hire Foreign Flight Attendants Airline unions take note of Northwest's outsourcing - Oct. 26, 2005 |
I must take issue with the assertion that in both occupations (FA and Pilot) that anyone can do it but not everyone can do it well. That may hold true for Flight Attendants but is absolutely laughable when it comes to pilots. I have been a flight instructor way too long to stomach or tolerate that one. The mere fact that was put forth on this forum makes an interesting point. At NWA with a Flight Attendant group that has been playing musical unions since they were represented by the ALPA S&S division in the early 1960's until now, one thing has remained constant. That is the FA's collectively think that "2 more weeks of new hire training and I could have been a pilot!" Because of that the mantra of the FA union has remained the same "Egual pay for equal work! we are all on the same airplane we should all be paid the same!" or similar drivel. When AFA infests Delta no net good will come to the pilots, and you will see the FA's try to institute a "MEE TOO!" clause in their contract like they have done at most airlines. "MEEEEE TOO!" is a lot worse for pilots that you might immagine since any thing that you bargain for(except for pay and pension) must be instantly awarded to the FA's also. That means that when you negotiate with management over a perk or benefit you are negotiating for the FA's as well. Without their help I might add. Management sitting accross the table must compute the cost not only for that perk or benefit going to the pilot group but too half-again that many FA's.The "benefits" to the pilots of a unionized FA group only begin there...........Wear that pin at your peril!
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Neither myself nor any other F/A believes that I should make as much as a pilot, 2 completely different crafts and responsabilities. However I do believe in fair pay and fair increases. If the company can fork out lets say 5% for pilots, then I would say giving the F/A group 5% is fair. 5% for you is alot more than 5% for me, thats what I consider fair. Delta pilots received 23 month furlough protection as part of the merger, why can't I also have that?
AFA has included the MEE TOO scope in their CBA's in the past, and I believe that its a possibility they will continue that. |
Originally Posted by DALFA
(Post 496765)
However I do believe in fair pay and fair increases. If the company can fork out lets say 5% for pilots, then I would say giving the F/A group 5% is fair. 5% for you is alot more than 5% for me, thats what I consider fair.
J I'm done here |
You must have wrong numbers my friend...
Delta F/A's had the highest percentage of pay cuts than any other F/A group, 45%! Delta F/A's had the highest number of involuntary layoffs than any other F/A group! |
On the subject of a 48 percent pay cut relative to a 21 percent cut for the FA's I also recall a labor solidarity story. Labor solidarity is supposed to work "on the way up and also on the way down".. In the fall of 2004 the labor coalition at NWA all looked to the pilots for leadership (this was publicly stated by the FA's , the IAM, the TWU,etc. on the subject of a concession package in an attempt to forstall Chapt 11). The jist of things was that if the pilots lead the others will follow only they didn't. So in November of 2004 we agreed to a compensation package reduction of about 20%, right after that the FA's sarcasticly thanked us for taking a paycut so "that they wouldn't have to" . The FA's are always asking for us to commit to honoring their picket lines (we never disclose in advance what we will do as a matter of policy), but when push comes to shove the FA's are a weak unreliable ally at best and a liability on average... The MEE TOO clause definitely limits the economic value that pilots can negotiate for as previously mentioned, simply because what ever you bargain for isn't just attained for 12,000 pilots but then also 18,000 FA's. If you like having your bargaining power diluted , then help the FA's bring in AFA. And remember that in a tough labor battle they will be an ally of questionable value at best.
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Once again...its not 21% its about 45%.
Top out pay in 2000... $62/hr Top out pay now... $41/hr Also, loss of international pay, loss of night pay, lowered LOD pay, gained minutes under ( you can actually loose time!), reduction in purser pay, reduction in vacation etc... It adds up to approx 45% in pay. |
Way out of control!
Well it seems like this thread is getting a little out of hand and people turned it into a F/A vs Pilots thread....
For those who expressed your support, THANK YOU! For those of you who whould not wear a pin and still were civil and respectful in your reply, THANK YOU! For those of you that think you are on a pedastall and that everyone else is less deserving than you, and view your fellow crewmembers as "unskilled labour" or "waiters", someone should take that ladder and beat you with it! Next time a F/A is a b!$#@ to you, and makes you wait a little while for you to come out or you have to wait a little longer for your meal...you will know exacly why! On a last thought...don't look down on your co-workers, doesn't matter if its a CSA or a ramper thats on lav duty. Everyone plays an important role in the operation and we would not be able to operate without any of the employee groups. |
Captains authority
:) I hope you are fam. with Captains authority and chain of command. You will be the one waiting.
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Originally Posted by milky
(Post 495917)
Organizing and unionizing does not mean that your job will be better or your company stronger. There are many examples. UAW is a great one.
While F/As do an important job, the arguments here about what they do are still examples of jobs that are not really skilled/professional labor. A bouncer blocks people from entering a door. I don't think anybody would argue that bouncers are anything but unskilled labor. There are many basic jobs that are given basic first aid training and taught how to use a defibrillator. The truth is that somebody can walk off the street and within a few weeks be fully trained to do the job of FA. Just because you have a lot of coworkers that do the same job as you does not mean that you should be able to hold your company hostage. I believe there is enough competition on both sides of the equation to keep things mostly balanced. There are many companies at which you can be a FA. So, if you don't like the work rules/pay at your company, there are other places to work. The FA can be trained easily enough that the airline should be able to replace a fair enough FAs with whatever the market will accept for pay that they should be able to keep the pay at 'market' price. Just because people are willing to do your job for less money does not mean you should be able to unionize to protect your paycheck. That's bad for the company. It's bad for the country. By the way, I feel the same way about pilots for the most part. The market has told pilots what they are really worth. Many are finally accepting it and making decisions based upon reality. Some are still clinging to their blame of evil management trying to keep labor down. Unionizing can be a great way for a labor group to fix gross inequities in the market. But, you guys keep complaining that your 'brothers' are screwing you by picking up open time and working on their days off, etc. That's not your brother screwing you. that's your brother telling you that the market of labor is willing to work more hours for less money. It isn't what you want to happen. It isn't what you want to hear. But, it's reality. |
Originally Posted by John Pennekamp
(Post 496163)
I'm sorry, but AFA is notorious for having "issues". My wife is an AFA member, and I have had a good inside look. I would say that on a national scale AFA is notoriously reckless about pursuing job actions (C.H.A.O.S) with little provocation, for the wrong reasons, and without the support of the other unions. Many times, AFA has pursued illegal CHAOS actions and damaged an airline just because they are angry
CHAOS was invented during the Alaska Airlines contract negotiations back in the '90's and was extremely effective. Not sure where you're getting your info on it or the AFA, but you might want to check out the facts. |
Originally Posted by chris1987
(Post 496387)
This is a service job. Like a waiter, you get drinks and pick up trash. If you want to be management apply for it. You dont get rewarded for a PHD if you work at a job that requires a GED.
Still waiting for the size 7. |
Originally Posted by DALFA
(Post 496863)
Well it seems like this thread is getting a little out of hand and people turned it into a F/A vs Pilots thread....
For those who expressed your support, THANK YOU! For those of you who whould not wear a pin and still were civil and respectful in your reply, THANK YOU! For those of you that think you are on a pedastall and that everyone else is less deserving than you, and view your fellow crewmembers as "unskilled labour" or "waiters", someone should take that ladder and beat you with it! Next time a F/A is a b!$#@ to you, and makes you wait a little while for you to come out or you have to wait a little longer for your meal...you will know exacly why! On a last thought...don't look down on your co-workers, doesn't matter if its a CSA or a ramper thats on lav duty. Everyone plays an important role in the operation and we would not be able to operate without any of the employee groups. The Delta that once upon a time existed is gone and they now have preditory management just like the rest of the airlines do, Delta will probably get the chance to experience the total NWA experience now that you are merged. Unionized FA's are a good thing. Good luck |
Originally Posted by 757Driver
(Post 496950)
Please don't ever apply at my airline. You'll be running across the picket line as soon as you are able.
No offense, but you obviously missed the point of my post. I would not work at your airline if I thought there was going to be a need to strike. If I read the tail flash of your avatar correctly, I also know that your airline does not pay enough for me to even consider applying. My value in the market is much higher than that. That is my point. Your glorious unions and work rules have turned being a pilot in your airlines a job that is a conveyor belt. Get on at the lowest pay if you are 'lucky' enough to get hired. Then, just wait for people to die or retire so you can get moved forward just a little bit. Did you get any better or worse at your job in the meantime? Doesn't matter. As long as you don't do one of the things that can get you fired, you will just keep riding the belt along in your 'career.' Oh, and hopefully the belt doesn't accidentally spin backwards and throw you off for a few years because you are furloughed. Oh, and the pay and work rules, etc. that you are willing to strike for may also force your company to lose the tiny profits (who are we kidding here, but we'll assume an airline can be profitable) they have and have to close their doors or furlough you anyway. As things stand right now, if you were to see me working at your company, I would probably be one of the evil guys you hate that makes a lot of money for doing 'nothing' running the business of the company. Pilots have set up their contracts to be hired help that just hope they can stop the backflow of pay and benefits as the market recedes because of cheap labor flooding your profession. I'm not happy about it, but I do see the reality of the situation. Many of you do not seem to. |
Originally Posted by milky
(Post 497775)
No offense, but you obviously missed the point of my post. I would not work at your airline if I thought there was going to be a need to strike. If I read the tail flash of your avatar correctly, I also know that your airline does not pay enough for me to even consider applying. My value in the market is much higher than that. That is my point. Your glorious unions and work rules have turned being a pilot in your airlines a job that is a conveyor belt. Get on at the lowest pay if you are 'lucky' enough to get hired. Then, just wait for people to die or retire so you can get moved forward just a little bit. Did you get any better or worse at your job in the meantime? Doesn't matter. As long as you don't do one of the things that can get you fired, you will just keep riding the belt along in your 'career.' Oh, and hopefully the belt doesn't accidentally spin backwards and throw you off for a few years because you are furloughed. Oh, and the pay and work rules, etc. that you are willing to strike for may also force your company to lose the tiny profits (who are we kidding here, but we'll assume an airline can be profitable) they have and have to close their doors or furlough you anyway.
As things stand right now, if you were to see me working at your company, I would probably be one of the evil guys you hate that makes a lot of money for doing 'nothing' running the business of the company. Pilots have set up their contracts to be hired help that just hope they can stop the backflow of pay and benefits as the market recedes because of cheap labor flooding your profession. I'm not happy about it, but I do see the reality of the situation. Many of you do not seem to. From your indicated experience level you wouldn't get a call from a check hauler. |
Originally Posted by 757upspilot
(Post 497841)
From your bio, do you have a ATP in a C-310 or an Aztec?
From your indicated experience level you wouldn't get a call from a check hauler. |
Originally Posted by milky
(Post 498171)
You probably shouldn't make assumptions based on online profiles that are not filled out in completion on purpose. For what it's worth, I am in a prime position to transition from my current flying job to any major/legacy/cargo that is hiring. My point was that I will likely take my leadership/management training that goes along with my current flying job and go somewhere that will pay me for my skills not for my position on the conveyor belt. Sad. I love flying, but I value myself more than that.
If you where positioned as you indicate you would be there already. Your posts show no leadership and your management training is probably aquired at the same school. You are correct about the online profile, mine is also understated. |
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