I'm not questioning your credentials, and I'm not really interested in a whose is bigger contest. I was just saying that I fly for an organization that is known for training great leaders as well as great pilots. We tend to get jobs with many less hours than our peers because of our training. But, I don't want to work for a place that starts pilots out at 30k per year and doesn't get much better for a while. I make much more than that now, and I can get a management/corporate/sales job easily starting 80-90k/year. The bummer would be that it isn't flying, but airline flying isn't really that great of a job these days anyway. That was my whole point. Would I love for airlines to be a great job with great pay and QOL? Of course. I'd jump on the conveyor belt like you probably did some time ago since I believe you're a captain now. But, it's not the same as when you started. The market is flooded with cheap labor, and the airlines seem to have no issue with accepting it no matter what skill/training.

Back to my point on this thread, the airline unions (just like detroit unions) have made your industry difficult to enter and impossible to laterally transfer. The pay was once worth it. But, with the volatility of each airline, there is not even a slim chance of knowing if you will be able to stay with your company for the rest of your career. Since, you lose everything you had when you join a new organization, you have essentially set up your industry to be non-labor friendly. Throw on top of that your desires to artificially increase pilot wages in an industry that obviously does not support high wages, and you are just setting yourself up for failure. I know you probably have a lot of time invested in this career. Hopefully you are close to retirement because I would be shi*%ing myself if I was 45 in my 8-12th year as a major pilot in this industry. You cannot afford to start over with a different company. You need your company to survive. If you strike, you may cause your company to fail. If you don't strike, you may make less than you made 10 years ago. No win situation.

Don't take this the wrong way. I want to be an airline pilot. I'm just not willing to do it in the industry as it currently stands.

Good, the industry doesn't need you.

Yes, with individuals like Milky around we know that management will salivate at the possibility of locking us out in order to find such willing "permanent replacements" if only in the ideological sense..... Something to the effect of "don't insist on payraises, that would be bad for the company, or the industry or the consumer......." I look forward to flying in an industry with one less Milky.

Well, obviously, you're not going to actually read what I am saying, so I'll give up. I never once said you should not try to get the best QOL and pay for your efforts. My point is that your current system and the current market is stacked against you doing anything but taking it in the shorts. You've got pilots that are willing to take poverty wages to do their dream job of flying a large shiny airplane. They would probably pay the company for the honor if they let them.
You keep saying that you're glad I'm not there as if I was one of those guys. In fact, I will not come there because those guys are already there. That was my point. You've got a whole generation of young pilots that will do anything to fly and are just happy to have a job. I don't know your personal track there, and I hope you are not like many of these guys, but your young civilian-route pilots are basically hypocrites. They were willing to work for less than minimum wage to build hours to do whatever they could do to get on with a major/legacy airline. They wh0red themselves out because they wanted to get there. They drove down pilot wages because they thought if they could just get to that big airline, they would be set. Then, the payscales dropped, but they were still more than happy to take the job. THEY SET THE MARKET PRICE FOR BEING A PILOT. Then, they get into the job, and they look at the wages, and they say, "We need to stop getting screwed by management." No, you screwed yourselves. Management just paid what the going price is for a pilot.
Your union can do whatever you want it to do, but they are not going to change the value of being a pilot artificially because those young 'wh0re' pilots already set the price.
Like I said, I wanted to be an airline pilot as much as any of you. I just cannot afford the pay cut.

Milky,

It's a Friday night, and I don't have the time to respond. But, you are 100% correct. Our profession is cursed because so many people have a passion to fly airplanes. I know I did. By the time I was 12, I had decided to be an airline pilot. I did what it took, and here I am flying Captain for the world's largest airline.

As a result, management doesn't set pay to attract talent, the talent shows up and will work for (almost) whatever is offered. Thats what makes this particular profession so unique, and its also what will keep us from ever seeing decent wages again. We could delay this transition if we had a true national union, but the end result is a given.

Pay will keep dropping until people stop applying OR regional jets start crashing; and I suspect that's gonna be a long while before either of those happen.

Just wanted to let you know there are those out here who recognize the validity of your statements.

PG

Thanks, PG. I never said it was good news or an easy pill to swallow. I've been planning on transitioning to airlines for the past 3 years. Now, I am inside a year from making big life decisions with no big career that I'm excited to tackle. Right now, I'm probably going to stay where I am. QOL isn't perfect, but the pay is good, and the retirement is second to none. I wish flying big airplanes was a good way to live and make huge stacks of money like it once was. Maybe someday people will understand that 300 hours in the right seat of a jet is a scary proposition. Sure, the jets fly themselves, but making good decisions is what the pilot is the reason for the pilot. I just read a thread on here that a regional pilot didn't get hired at Mesa because he smarted off to his interviewer. In his mind, he didn't get the job because he wasn't wearing a jacket. What the hell is that guy going to do when things start falling apart in the cockpit? Honestly, I am scared to let my family fly because only regional jets fly into the airports we fly from.

Sorry for the thread hijack, but if the pilots union should really consider hiring standards as their big push. That would directly affect wages. I still don't believe pilots should support FA unions. I don't really support pilot unions, but they already exist. I definitely would not want my ability to earn a paycheck directly tied to a non-professional unionized group. Scary stuff.

...and thats why your position says: "job hunting".
Believe it or not but its because of unions that work groups are able to enjoy what they have today, some have it better than others because in the past couple of years this industry has gone thru some hard times...

You think that Delta would have given its pilots the United+1 contract in the 90s if the pilot group wasn't unionized??? Are you kidding? Do you think crews would have adequate rest facilities on TATL flights if it wasn't for the union? Do you think that work rules would be anywhere but F.A.R. minimums if it wasn't for the unions??? Maybe you should read up on how beneficial unions have been to the workforce in the past...

Maybe you should read this....

The title is: Wage Determination in the U.S. Airline Industry: Union Power under Product Market Constraints
Georgia State University dept of Economics
SSRN-Wage Determination in the U.S. Airline Industry: Union Power under Product Market Constraints by Barry Hirsch

What validity? The guys a management wanna-be who doesn't give a flying-fudge who he screws over as long as he can claw his way up the ladder.

Sadly he's also primed for scab-dom.

I give up. You guys are correct. Unions are perfect. Detroit is probably failing because nobody wants to buy or drive cars. If it's pro-labor, there can be nothing wrong with it. Thanks for changing my mind.

Milky,

Without writing a treatise, let me summarize a few of my main thoughts.

1. Unions do have value in that they level the playing field with management. They ensure that workers actually benefit when times are good. However, wage/benefit creep does slowly occur as compared with non union employees who are powerless to obtain fair wage increases to the point that eventually the definition of a "fair" wage gets re-defined to whatever the non union employees make, and then it will take a bankruptcy to reset the union contract back down to that lower level. That happened in the steel industries, then the airlines, and soon the auto makers. Unions will delay the process, but can't prevent it.

2. Many pilots are still living in denial. Our wages aren't ever going to return to the wages of the past. So long as you have a seemingly unlimited supply of 20 somethings willing to work for peanuts, why should the airlines pay any more than that? Having said that, I do believe wages have been reset and we are at/near the bottom.

When the average 22 year old looks at what it will take to reach a decent wage, many are realizing the journey is not worth it. Not sure how old you are, but you have made that same statement. You love to fly, would love to do it as a career, but aren't willing to go through so many lean years just for the HOPE of something someday. I don't blame you.

In fact, when asked by teenagers or young adults whether they should pursue this career, my answer is simple. If that person has a true passion for flying, then yes, pursue it and you will be happy. Making $90k for a regional (or ultimately $150k for a major) beats selling insurance or being a lawyer, even if you're making $250k doing that. Money really isn't everything. Many of my non pilot friends attest to that. The only sad thing is I used to make what they are making AND I got to be a pilot. But that's history now.

3. As for F/A's - I'll leave that to others to discuss. Sorry for the thread hijack.

PG

You are speaking about crew rest. Duty rigs are generally referred to as 1 for 2, 1 for 3.5 ect... In that area Delta is at the top.
You also have to be very careful with rest rules. If you increase required rest you often decrease the value of rotations. A trip now flown as a 3 day with 3 duty periods worth 17 hours becomes a 3 day trip with two duty periods and a 30 hour layover now worth 11 hours. If you go back to 8 hours max flight time per day you lose all the high time turns the flight attendants love so much. Everything has a cause and effect. Delta flight attendants enjoy some of the best rotation construction in the industry. One last point on rest. A cap is the cornerstone of any contract. If DAL goes back to a 80 hour cap you will hear the screaming in Bombay from Atlanta.

Northwest and other airlines don't have a cap, some still do. Also, NWA F/A's are allowed to fly over 8hrs in a day...their scheduled duty day maximum is 13hrs.

Here is the thing, the CBA that NW currently works under was ratified during the time NWA was in BK.

NWA has the lowest base pay out of the "Big 9", with Delta coming in right behind it. So your F/A's are making the lowest pay, yet we are the "Premier Global Airline". Our top out pay is about 5-6/hr lower than indusrty "standard" and we aren't getting there! Not without a union!

So how do you feel about having the lowest paid Flight Attenadnts in the industry?

pouring gas on the fire.
 

Why is it ok for pilots to be unionized and not f/a,s?
You all work at the same co. so why not support each other ?
Remember strength in numbers or is it the pilot number that really matter?:eek:

Hello Dynasty! Of course a union for pilots is good, but since this forum is on Airline Pilot Central I believe that the real question here isn't so much "is a flight attendant union good for flight attendants" but since this is Airline Pilot Central the question here should be...."Is a flight attendant union good for pilots?". Over a 25 year career at NWA and being a student of industry history I can see no good for pilots coming out of flight attendants having a union. This position has much justification which can be brought forth and debated on this thread in the future(I have to leave the computer for a hour or two) .... The flight attendants have every right to attempt to determine their future and status. I just think that the best pilots can do is stay out of it, especially since no good for us will come of a flight attendant union.

Where I work there are two sides of the union, the physical and clerical unions. Both sides hear and know about the other sides problems and has their own dog in the fight but we still work for the same management that will screw whoever they can whenever they can. Both contracts expire simutaniously. Everybody these days has the "hooray for me screw you attitude". It goes against the principles of unionization when both are working for the betterment of themselves to say screw the other side. Any thing else is purely egotistical.

You are both required crew.

DOH !schould have had more coffee before i posted that .:)

Can you provide a link to back that up? I found data online that suggests the opposite. However, some if it was dated.

Thanks

Airline comparison charts
Chart 27 shows F/A unit cost comparison. Just look at the bottom, you will see NWA and DL!

Also,
http://www.apfa.org/images/contract/...comparison.pdf

Its from 2006, but thats the actual latest document without me giving you the links to the individual airline CBA and you going thru them. Hope it answers your question.

:D:D
You must have missed that first question that went out the 3 CEO's during the hearing.. "did any of you take a commercial flight here?"

It was estimated they each spent $20,000 to charter personal aircraft to get there. Not like the failings had to do with management or anything...

:p

Dang.. no hysterically laughing smiley face

I know I am putting myself in the crosshairs for saying this ... but,

Chart 27 IS NOT necessarily a reflection of FA wages. It is FA wage cost PER unit mile. There could be many reasons why DAL and NWA end up on the bottom besides pay. It could be that NWA or DAL staffs each airplane with one less FA. Or perhaps the DAL FAs are younger, which would drive lower labor costs than say an airline with older FAs.

But I see your point. When compared to AA, DAL FAs wages are about 10 percent lower. Considering DAL just exited bankruptcy, this isn't exactly a bad thing! The chart is also from 2006. Didn't DAL FAs get an increase in pay with the merger DCC?

I guess a point I'd like to make sure ya'll know who you get in bed with. I read a NWA FA message that was sent out by their union about how DAL management had sent a questionaire to all FAs. And the union had painted that as such a bad thing. The unions are always trying to tell us that management is bad. I'm sure some are, and I know some have been in the past.

I just don't want to see our happy FAs become a bitter group because some union smuck is telling them that management sucks and that they deserve better.

-Fatty

I am definitely a suporter for the FA's, but this is true. Please please make sure you have the right representing body for yourselves. Although I consider myself a STRONG union supporter I would be leery of an organization that tries to pit the work force against management. I am NOT saying that this is what unions do, I know of several work groups that report an excellent relationship with management and this should be the goal of all unions. Don't repeat another NW AMFA scene and let them convince you that management is evil. I believe that there is inherent respect that is due to all management, after all for the most part those people have the ability to fulfill those responsibilities. Now with that said, I believe you should get what is fair for quality of life, and to protect the labor force from outsourcing because of people like RA at Delta who get $13.2 million in compensation. Specifically I'm referring to the CBA that AMFA brought and allowed MW mtc to be outsourced and how MGT had a big party when that happened and went right to work on the outsourcing. I wonder how happy upper management would be if their jobs got outsourced to managers in India. If you run into those "pull up a ladder" types don't forget that all it takes is to knock out ONE of the four points and they all come tumbling down. Keep up your good work.

DAL F/A's are some of the most senior in the industry...come on, when is the last time you flew DL?:p

Yes, DL F/A's will be getting 3% pay increases...

Some of you might also be wondering why Delta has some of the most senior flight attendants. The answer? Its because they can't afford to retire....here is a prime example, the link provided is to a report issued by the Delta Air Lines Retirement Committee...

The evolution of Non-contract Delta Air Lines retiree benefits
http://www.dalrc.info/dalrcpdefs/evo...tudy_41608.pdf

Enjoy

You are probably correct -- many of them probably can't afford to retire. However, was that their doing or their reliance that the company was going to cover them as they got older? Not throwing stones. Anyone who doesn't save money for the future is making a huge mistake. And don't tell me you can't afford to save. It is that you CHOOSE not to afford it.

The DAL FAs aren't alone. Defined benefit plans are history at most companies. Look at the current Big3 auto industry fiasco. Their defined plans are killing them. What was once promised is now unattainable.

After some of these realizations, I still don't see what a union is going to bring to the table for the DAL FAs that really isn't already there.

-Fatty

For those people that have just retired, they are required to cover 100% of the cost of health insurance...a whopping $539.74 per month, NW retirees pay under $200 per month.

Black and white work rules that aren't FAA minimums, don't change once a week(they really do), and that management actually has to follow!

Restoration of at least a portion of pay lost in the past 6 years, current DL wages are about 15-20% lower than AA and CO, and about 20-25% lower than AS and WN wages.

Scope protection that will make it harder for the company to outsource jobs.

Does this answer your question?

Based on the links your already provided, your wages aren't 15-25% lower than other major airlines. The DAL FAs just received a pay increase with the merger, so, the DAL FA rates aren't that far off from the others when you consider DAL just exited bankruptcy.

The bigger question you should ask yourself is, why are the NWA FAs who have union represtation, not that much better off, if any, than their DAL sisters?

My prediction ....

Based on the not-so-friendly actions already taken by the NWA FA union regarding DAL management, DAL FAs will unionize, the friendly culture at DAL dies, the union won't police itself and will allow substandard performance from the FAs all the while saying that they deserve more, and we see a FA strike within 10 years.

-Fatty

Lets look at it for a second, i'll break it down and you can decide. There are many F/A's at DL that fly 120-140 hours a month, lets make an example at 100 hours.

Betty has 15 years, flies 100 hours a month on domestic flights.

American(APFA) = (70hrs @ $46.00) + (30hrs @ $52.90) = 3496 + 1587 = $5083
Alaska(AFA) = (100hrs @ $50.42) = $5042
Continental(IAM) = (75hrs @ $48.15) + (25hrs @ $53.15) = 3611 + 1329 = $4940
Southwest(TWU) = (80hrs @ $57.57) + (20hrs @ $63.27) = 4605 + 1265 = $5870

Delta = (100hrs @ $42.30) = $4230


There you have it...

I hope you are right on...
But not on the rest.

Just found this....

17 OCTOBER 2008


Today the NWA Air Line Pilots Association Master Executive Council unaminously adopted a resolution of support for the Association of Flight Attendants and for our organizing efforts at Delta Air Lines. We thank them for their historic move and their spirit of solidarity, and we look forward to continuing the long tradition of mutual respect and professional cooperation between our two unions.

Please join us in thanking our ALPA brothers and sisters for their support, as we stand shoulder to shoulder to preserve the benefits of unionization, at what will be the world's largest airline.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resolution of Support for the Association of Flight Attendants


WHEREAS the Northwest pilots have a progressive, hard won tradition that is demonstrated by our longstanding support of unionized airline employees, and

WHEREAS the strong professional relationship between the pilots of Northwest ALPA and the flight attendants of Northwest AFA is based on mutual respect and history of cooperation, and

WHEREAS Northwest AFA and Northwest ALPA have many common issues and needs when working as on duty flight crew and contract representatives,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the NWA ALPA MEC fully supports our fellow unionized flying partners in the cabin, represented by the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA, and

BE IT FINALLY RESOLVED that we will encourage ALPA International to join us in supporting the organizing effort of the DAL flight attendants, so that the benefits of unionization including safety, security and professionalism for AFA, ALPA and other unions within the new airline, will continue to contribute to the success of the merged carrier.



Any chance for support from DALPA?

Just curious, how did a job that was intended for the hot 20-somethings that didn't know what they wanted to do in life become a career with expected benefits?

I honestly don't mean any disrespect to FAs ... just curious how that happened?

I'd like to see an internship program setup where 20-somethings work for 6-8 years while attending part-time college (paid for by the company). Then, once graduated, the company could hire from within the best candidates. If they weren't hired, they would move on and use their degree in another field.

Let me dream ...

YouTube - Southwest Airlines Hostesses Hotpants Ad 1972

YouTube - Southwest Airlines commercial circa 1972

HIRE THIS WOMEN !!! YouTube - The Foxy Flight Attendant Bikini Rap

YouTube - March of the Flight Attendants - Xiamen, China

-Fatty

It is interesting to note with the exception of Alaska (which had its first contact mirror SWA[TWU]), none of the flight attendant pay held out as superior to Delta's was from an AFA represented carrier.

If you look at current three largest afa carriers, UAL, NWA, and LCC, you will find a pay advantage for Delta.

The straight hour example above also did not include performance bonuses and profit sharing.

If you google "flight attendant" and "industry contract comparison" or "flight attendant compensation chart," you will find multiple sources that support argument that the afa is not delivering industry leading contracts. The IAM. APFA, an MIT group and Delta management have all published these comparisons.

IMHO, based on the available data and its track record,the afa will not be able to deliver all that it is promising us.

I agree same reason

Do you really want to take a look at the whole picture?


Lets have a look...

Average flight attendant expense per Capita(2007) this is the latest information available.

Southwest - $79,100
American - $73,700
Continental -$73,100
Northwest - $63,500
United - $63,300
Delta - $60,200
JetBlue - $60,000
UsAirways - $53,300


This includes the total compensation package ingluding wages, benefits, retirement etc...


Sure, the base pay at Delta might be a little higher then at United or Northwest. But lets take a look at some of the benefits those carriers have.

Delta health insurance - $67 per month, $1000 deductible($500 credit from DL) and the RX coverage literally stinks!

Northwest health insurance - $91 per month, $350 deductible, much better RX coverage.

United health insurance - multiple plans including a free option, Kaiser Permanente HMO, no deductible only small co-pays, no monthly premium



Go down to duty rigs...


Delta domestic max duty day = 16
United/Northwest = 14-15

Minimum rest after a 16 hour duty day?

Delta = 8:15 from release to report

United/Northwest = At least 10.


Minimum credit per duty period?

Delta = 4:45 average

Duty period 1 = 6:30
Duty period 2 = 6:30
Duty period 3 = 2:00

Total = 15 hours

Northwest = 4:15 minimum per duty period

Duty period 1 = 6:30
Duty period 2 = 6:30
Duty period 3 = 2:00(4:15 because of credit)

Total = 17:15


Which would you rather make?

Delta = $43 per hour

Northwest = $40 per hour


Also, the above example isn't 1 in a million either...its actually quite common!



Back to your comment about AFa negotiated contracts...


United and UsAirways contracts are concessionary contracts. Agreed to by the membership when the company was hurting. United is in its initial stateg of contract negotiations, and UsAirways wont be able to get a new contract until 2011 or until the pilots get a new contract. Why? There are alot of me too clauses in the UsAir contract and the NMB has aligned itself with management instead of making UsAir management come to the table!

The Northwest contract was negotiated by AFA in 10 days! It was either that or thousands of flight attendant jobs being outsourced to lower paid foreign nationals. Oh btw...those same guys that wanted to do that then are now at Delta! Shhh....dont tell anyone abou it!


The Alaska contract is actually a good indication of what AFA can negotiate at a healthy airline, as that was the last contract negotiated at an airline not in Ch.11 or on the brink of it!

Most of the improvements that Delta F/A's enjoy today are from last year, put in place right before the last union vote. Just by AFA threatening to be on the premises gets you this much...imagin how much you can get by it actually being your bargaining agent!


All this crap about management will take care of you is really old. Perhaps those who still believe this should go in for an update!

i think f/a are mean...

Many have indicated they would not wear a pin or support the f/a specifically but would you tag your bag with something like 'Union Yes'?

No, I don't think my union has been working for me.

The question that hasn't yet been answered is, why do the DAL FAs want the same union that NWA FAs have, but yet, I think it is clear that DAL FAs have it better. I don't think the NWA FAs have gotten their money's worth.

You all want to know why you have to deal with the grouchy old hags on the plane????

Delta retiree insurance = $581 per month
Northwest retiree insurance = $181 per month

Delta has a SS offset
Northwest does not

Why should the "new" Delta group want scope???

Look...

Airline unions take note of Northwest's outsourcing - Oct. 26, 2005

USATODAY.com - Northwest wants to hire non-U.S. flight attendants for international flights


I hear you guys b**ch about scope all day, and you have that right! How about those of us in the back get some job protection????

It's important not to confuse the 2 issues at hand with the flight attendants, 1. Union representation and 2. the negotiating organization. With little exception pilot unions in the US are few while among the flight attendants there are more options.

So back to my initial question without regard to a specific organization, would you put a sticker on a flight bag stating 'Union Yes"?

I don't think so. If you were correct, the opposite of that argument would be true. But it isn't, that's why the FAs at NWA are old hags too.

Having old FAs has more to do with political correctness (FAA not mandating certain physical standards) and the FAs not putting their money where they should and living within their means.

My father, a person who has made less than 35K a year, has a very good retirement and owns his own home. He was smart with his money and didn't waste it. In fact, when I was in high school, I was teased because my friends thought we were "rich".

I'm all for people having job protection and a decent salary. I just happen to think that DAL FAs already have that. And I think the union that you want to get in bed with, as already shown with its experience with NWA and what they have, is going to be good for the FAs or for Delta.

Please show me where we have scope?

I deat with the same management as you, if I should go ahead and trust management...why don't you guys just get rid of your scope language and trust management just like you want us to.

We have a bunch of fellows running the show that grew up with Lorenzo. I don't trust our management team and I want it in writing. Whats so bad about that?

You seem to think its a good thing, the dispatchers seem to think ist a good thing, and management seems to think its ok for them to have a contract.

But why not us?

We're at the bottom of the barrell in compensation, have the worst work rules in the country (most F.A.R. minimums) and now we have a bunch of people running the show that tried to outsource F/A jobs just a couple of years ago.

Wouldn't it be stupid to NOT want it in writing?