Delta F/As union drive!
 

For those of you that are Pilots at DL and NW, would you support your F/As by wearing an AFA pin on your tie or putting an AFa tag on your bag?

Yes or No, and please why...


P.S. I'm not asking you to, I just want to know how much support our pilots could actually provide us.

I'm not a big supporter of unionizing the FAs.

I would wear an AFA tie tack. :cool: I believe our F/A's should have an organized voice with the company. Over the years, it has appeared that the company often arbitrarily changed work rules for the F/A's and I feel that they should have more of a voice in the process.

I want my company to flurish, but "labor" should be a stakeholder in the future of our company.

Tomcat

How do you feel about the pilot group being represented by ALPA?

I think if you saw the attitude and service given you would not want a union.

I'm definitely not trying to stir the pot here, but my response would have to be no. Why? My rational is simply this. The FA's at Delta have already voiced their support (minority), or lack of (majority), of becoming a unionized organization. My support by wearing an AFA pin, or anything for that matter, would go against the MAJORITY of FA's who have already voted on several occasions not to become members of AFA. I'll support the FA's as a whole, but you'll have to decide this one, again, on your own IMHO.

I think one thing I learned over the last 25 years at NWA is to stay away from the union affairs of other employee groups. In 1998 we gave covert help to AMFA in their escape from the IAM... We came to regret that for reasons too numerous and complicated for the current venue of discussion. Suffice it to say that the internal choices of another employee group are generally best left alone by the pilots. Total neutrality.

Sounds like good advise..... best of luck to them!

No I would not support AFA at Delta. AFA has been less than useless and possibly destructive at every carrier I have ever worked. Delta, I believe, has a superior culture due to the lack of heavy union presence and I would like to keep it that way. Before you call me a hypocrite, yes I'm a long time ALPA member but believe it is a necessary evil to endure primarily for the betterment of safety. AFA is in no way comparable to ALPA in purpose or merit.

My answer to the OP's question ... no. What a second ... HELL NO!

I am not for unionizing the FAs. And I will not get into a discussion why I'm not.

-Fatty

What a ridiculous thing to say.

Alaska Airlines is one of the most miltant members of the AFA and they deliver a product that's second to none.

Hell, I'll wear an Delta AFA pin if it furthers their cause.

You guys are amazing, its OK for you to be compensated and treated fairly, but not anyone else.

Hypocrites.

You can put on a dress too.

Can I borrow something from your extensive wardrobe in a size 7?

Yeah I know childish, but I couldn't resist.

How do you feel about unskilled labour striking and affecting your family's livelihood?

If they want AFA that is fine that is their right. I think AFA will do more harm then good, but I don't get to vote so who cares.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!

Let's get this straight.... It's okay for you to strike and effect the livelihood of all the employees at a company because you know how to fly an airplane. Well, pull up the ladder, you have yours.

I don't understand size 7?

Wow, I am very surprised to say the least. I view the pilot group as an example that by sticking together you get more done, by making sure that the guy next to you has your back. This is something we are missing as now the largest F/A group in the world, I also believe that we are now going to be watched by every other airline in the world and we have an obbligation to lead the way with improvements to our salary and duty rigs. Management keeps getting millions and we got 3% in July after taking a 45% pay cut. Like I said, I don't hold it against any of you...its your choice. But remember, we have a family to feed just like you do...and most of us have college degrees or some other type of post-secondary education. Once again, I am very surprised to hear this...and have to say that I have not had 1 pilot tell me we should not unionize, actually I have seen pilots with AFA pins on their ties that why I asked. Also remember that there are many of you that have a spose, or other family member that is a F/A...


So far we have...1 yes and.....lots of he!! no...

DALFA, Keep one thing in mind. What you read on a forum rarely ever reflects the actual sentiment of a group. Forums tend to attract those at extremes. I would wear a AFA pin. I do however have one question? What would you want to improve on your duty rigs? They are already industry leading.

I never said it was OK for us to strike. I just don't trust unskilled labour to make the same moderate decisions DALPA has made in the past. ALPA is way BIGGER than a pilots ability to strike. ALPA is an association that not only has the pilots best interest in mind but also the passengers. Because the FAA has no checks and balances and its function is to promote and regulate we must have a voice in Washington to prevent business from taking advantage of a very very poor organization. As far as I am concerned the AFA will be nothing more than a dues collecting organization.

I think the threat of a union is a much bigger bargaining chip than having a union on property.I would support the FA's but it is their choice.By wearing a pin I am no longer neutral and at DL I would be ****ing 2 off for every 1 I make happy.Hey, I do that anyway maybe I will wear the pin.

I don't believe so. Just look at the NWA CBA and you will see that their duty rigs are by far superior to ours at DL. No matter if I am on duty 8 hours or 16 hours my minimum rest is 8 hours behind the door, at NW if block exeeds 8 hours they go up to 9, and if they exeed 12 they get 10 hours. That is huge, you all know how tired one can be after 15-16 hours on duty...

There are other things that are better off in the NWA CBA, now if you look at hourly pay...yes at DL its actually a little higher, but remember that NWA F/As didnt take any pay cuts until 2005...and that this contract was pretty much imposed while NWA was in Ch.11

I think the DAL FAs are awesome. I think they are much better than their unionized cousins. I like the fact that DAL is largely non-unionized.

After checking cabincrews.com (which I have no idea if the information is legit), it seems that DAL FAs are for the most part, the highest paid in the industry. True?

Is there something our FAs are lacking that unionized FAs have?

Our FAs just voted recently and they decided not to be unionized. I would hate to see the grandma's from NWA scew that up.

-Fatty

I have talked to plenty of pilots who will support AFA. If you think it is the best thing for DAL FAs then by all means try to get it done. I would say in NYC at least 50% of the pilots would support AFA. With that being said I wouldn't expect much more help than wearing an AFA pin from the pilots. Notice thats all any of them have offered to do.

You all know that when we talk about pay...any intelligent individual will take a look at the compensation as a whole. From hourly pay, to benefits, to duty rigs, to overrides, etc...just look at the F/A unit costs. Delta is probably top 5 in the industry for actual hourly pay...unit cost...dead bottom. Why? Well I know you are all very smart individuals so i'll leave it up to you...

Airline comparison charts

Look at Chart 27

Now you're getting it. However, my opinion is born out of what is best not just for myself but Delta as a whole. AFA is not what is best for Delta or its Flight Attendants. Thus, I oppose it.

Thats all we would like for you to do. We aren't asking you to take time out of your life, you have a life just like I do...now if you want to show up at rallies...hey the more the better. But believe it or not, its about being visual..the more people see that pin or that bag tag, the more people realize that its ok to be pro-union and pro-company. Its about checks and balances, and I believe that a union can provide some of that balance. Thank God you guys have ALPA, just by you guys having a CBA has given us immense improvements to what we used to have, or would have without you guys.

DALFA, sailingfun hit the nail on the head as usual. Our FA's do a great job and you have my support for what ever you decide to do as a group. Our union, though not perfect is doing a good job of the balancing act of representing their constituents and ensuring the company has the leeway to grow into financially solid future. I think this approach will serve all of us well. You just can't get something for nothing.... everything has a price.

Best of luck!

Tomcat

Excuse me??? I do not have intentions on doing this for over 2-3 years, however many of my co-workers have been here for 10-15-20-30 YEARS! Yes some are the old gray bags we all talk about, but they have given so much to Delta so you can have what you can also be here today!

Some people just love the job they do, I am dead serious...don't ask me how...but they do. Don't get me wrong I like my job, but its not gonna be what I do for the next 15-20 years.

In regards to this statement...

5000 F/As voted YES for the union last time around.
1200 F/As were on inactive furlough and were somehow allowed to be on the list
850 F/As were on the way out...took the package
6000 F/As didn't vote.


Out of the 6000 that didn't vote, there were many that are against a union on preperty. But believe it or not, it included a dead F/A that the NMB refused to remove from the list, its included people who never received a ballot in the mail...asked for a new ballot and never got that either, it included about 200 new-hires that have been out of training for less that 2 months and had so much kool-aid in their system they could have replaced the kool-aid man in those commercials, and many flight attendants that were unsure. Yes, I understand that some of these rules have been in place for some time...but in what other democratic election is not voting considered a 'No' vote???? This is why the union didn't get certified last time around.

Me, Me, Me... Shocking, and the reason why pilots find themselves in our current sit
 

Shocking and Pathetic, Fellow Pilots:mad:,

And like Agent Smith said in the Matrix ReLoaded, "ME, ME, ME"...

One only needs to look at the IPA pilots support of their "unskilled labour" (also known as your fellow coworkers, fellow Americans, fellow human beings, or even... team members, yes T E A M) during the IBT Teamster Strike of '97, to see what sticking together in solidarity gets you... Yes, that's right.. A better contract because of the threat that the IBT would strike in reciprocity for IPA's guaranteed support. Not only that, IPA pilots and the union showed a great deal of respect and support for their mostly unrepresented feeder pilots (also, pilots that were obviously beneath them, according to you guys posts) during the strike and this resulted in the feeder pilots refusing to fly struck goods and helping to end the strike. The SDF ramp looked like Dunkirk (or Dunquerqe), full of planes from C208's, Piper Aerostars, Metros, Lears, Falcons, up to ATI DC 8's with no pilots willing to fly them. When the strike was over, the IPA congratulated the feeders for their help and offered interest-free loans and preferential hiring for those feeder pilots who LOST THEIR JOBS refusing to fly struck goods. I guess this idea of sticking together is a foreign one to you....

Chris, Adolph, and Capn, I have to wonder how that you think that this is not hypocritical on the highest power for you to be represented and the F/A's not? It also makes me wonder how you look at all your fellow employees, not just those BELOW you. Did you all fly ONLY single pilot aircraft your whole career before Delta, and are you still? Do you REALLY believe CRM is CREW resource management? Are those "unskilled laborers" just fodder to help you all earn YOUR paycheck? Are you not familiar with the terms COWORKER and TEAM? It doesn't sound like you are, and if we were in a lifeboat with your fellow pilots, mechs, F/A's, their children, etc., I'm pretty sure from you guys posts who would be grabbing the first and last water bottle. Me, Me, Me..:confused:

It's no wonder pilots are sometimes so disliked by other employees and the public, and how easy it is for management to turn the public against us at contract time, through smart media disinformation. They make us look like,.... No, we make OURSELVES look like selfish prima donnas, because many of us ARE selfish prima donnas.

We should EAGERLY encourage our fellow Americans, not just employees, right to organize and bargain for a better life. Amazingly enough, in the old days when everyone stuck together, everybody's lives improved. You guys are making the same mistakes ALPA and APA made years ago, overlooking your fellow coworkers (namely RJ pilots) and only concentrating on "Me, Me, Me". Then look what happened, the RJ's threaten your DC9's against you and the RJ's are being whipsawed against each other.

Now is the time to wake up from selfishness and realize that those UNION F/A's will be much more likely to support YOU when you need them, than unrepresented, at-will ones will. And hopefully, you will support them when they need it... even though they are "unskilled and beneath you.

In Unity,

B727DRVR:cool:

PS- Good luck, DALFA! The majority of pilots and your fellow Americans support your right to organize and things are about to get a whole lot easier for you in that regard!

WOW. This thread just shows everyone the TRUE colors of Delta pilots. And it's shameful. As a union member you should support the FA's. The reason it was turned down last time is because the management had free reign to threaten and abuse the system daily.

Wake up. Look at the UPS pilots. Ground workers go out, so did we. Mechanics go out, so did we. Now look at our contract. Because we now have the support of our fellow workers.

I just think your worried that the $ pie is just so big, and you dont want one red cent going anywhere but in your wallet.

Typical arrogant Delta pilots. And you have to know your talked down about industry wide for the last 20 years because of your superior attitudes.

Now go wear that AFA pin!!

Make sure and tell the next F/A crew that you fly with how you feel.

Commando,

You're painting with an awfully broad brush to assume that all delta pilots are against an FA union on the property with the few posts here. As far as the rest of your post goes, here's one "arrogant" delta pilot with a "superior attitude" that says you can KMA.

Denny

So you agree with the rest of the posters than?

Spot on Molon. No way to win that one.

Carl

I find that our pilot group is pretty chilled out and mostly supportive of all the other employees...... Maybe it's just a West Coast thing!

Commando, thanks for the insight you bring to this conversation. It's been a while since I've felt so inspired.

Tomcat

What sort of blue collar banter is this? How did you get from "unskilled labour" to people not being "team members" and "RJ pilots suck"? I also don't think I referred to the FAs as beneath us either? Just because I said their job was unskilled labour does not mean they are. I said their JOB was, their is a massive difference!!!!!!!

Isn't there a big IBT rally in Jersey you should be at or something?

LOL, thanks for the good laugh I needed that!

Adolphus, I just not following you. Are you saying that only those people that have a particular skill set should be allowed to organize? What is that skill set and who defines it? Do our flight attendants not have a skill set that would meet your criteria? In the last 4 weeks, my flight attendants have handled 5 medical emergencies, one of which required a divert with the near loss of a passenger and 2 other flights with drunks. One of which was close to getting physical, but our FA's talked him down and handled the situation in a text book style. I'm not sure that the crew down at Chili's could handle the many issues that the FA's deal with day to day. I won't even get started on the security issues they face.

I appreciate the job that our FA's do. If they decide it's in their best interest to organize, I'll support them.

Tomcat