Pilot on the BUBBLE RPC/IBT
06-11-2011 | 07:42 PM
#11
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From: ERJ 145 FO
Thank you for attempting to learn more about an alternative to your current situation.
1) The RPC will be comprised of 3 "rj" pilots for every 1 airbus pilot. Obviously, the RPC will have a vested interest in obtaining the best possible wages for all RAH pilots.
With that being said, I honestly do not know what "industry topping" wages truly means. The current Chautauqua CBA has so many shortcomings it will be impossible to fill all of the leaks in the bucket with just one new CBA. That is the unfortunate reality that your reps will soon experience during Mediation.
The RPC will facilitate your current negotiation, if the IBT reps are interested in participating in a group effort.
This is the most important point and biggest difference between the RPC and IBT.
The RPC wil be a group effort, using a broad range of resources and experience.
The IBT will be your status quo as you know it today.
2. The gramatic tense of your question is not correct. The RPC is not "you" or "them" or "us". The RPC is the only option that will truly represent all 3000 pilots. Your concern regarding CPA's and codeshares is valid and complex.
Frontier already has a two CPA's with RAH. One with republic and one with chautauqua. I am pretty sure that all of us want those CPA's to flourish.
Jetblue has 10 " alliances" and they are a profitable entity. Frontier is working on multiple similar agreements, and if those agreements result in black ink we will all benefit.
The fact of the matter is "code share" is not a bad word for an LCC trying to gain market share and frequent flyer traffic.
MKE was opened by the company within the constraints of our CBA. FAPA still filed a dispute due to the strength of other language in our CBA. We quickly found ourselves in front of an arbitrator and actually ended up with better flexibility in MKE than our main base of Denver.
This is a critical point to understand.
Our CBA affords the company the right to do two things without an agreement in place.
They can open a domicile prior to an agreement on add/drop/swap limits.
They did and we prevailed with a huge win in MKE.
They can also add a aircraft prior to an agreement on pay rates.
We do not have an agreement on 190 rates, yet they will more than likely add them to our certificate.
Whoe do you want at the table?
The IBT, by themselves?
Or
The RPC, everyone together?
This will probably spiral into insanity on this message board, so please join the discussion at rahpilots.com.
1) The RPC will be comprised of 3 "rj" pilots for every 1 airbus pilot. Obviously, the RPC will have a vested interest in obtaining the best possible wages for all RAH pilots.
With that being said, I honestly do not know what "industry topping" wages truly means. The current Chautauqua CBA has so many shortcomings it will be impossible to fill all of the leaks in the bucket with just one new CBA. That is the unfortunate reality that your reps will soon experience during Mediation.
The RPC will facilitate your current negotiation, if the IBT reps are interested in participating in a group effort.
This is the most important point and biggest difference between the RPC and IBT.
The RPC wil be a group effort, using a broad range of resources and experience.
The IBT will be your status quo as you know it today.
2. The gramatic tense of your question is not correct. The RPC is not "you" or "them" or "us". The RPC is the only option that will truly represent all 3000 pilots. Your concern regarding CPA's and codeshares is valid and complex.
Frontier already has a two CPA's with RAH. One with republic and one with chautauqua. I am pretty sure that all of us want those CPA's to flourish.
Jetblue has 10 " alliances" and they are a profitable entity. Frontier is working on multiple similar agreements, and if those agreements result in black ink we will all benefit.
The fact of the matter is "code share" is not a bad word for an LCC trying to gain market share and frequent flyer traffic.
MKE was opened by the company within the constraints of our CBA. FAPA still filed a dispute due to the strength of other language in our CBA. We quickly found ourselves in front of an arbitrator and actually ended up with better flexibility in MKE than our main base of Denver.
This is a critical point to understand.
Our CBA affords the company the right to do two things without an agreement in place.
They can open a domicile prior to an agreement on add/drop/swap limits.
They did and we prevailed with a huge win in MKE.
They can also add a aircraft prior to an agreement on pay rates.
We do not have an agreement on 190 rates, yet they will more than likely add them to our certificate.
Whoe do you want at the table?
The IBT, by themselves?
Or
The RPC, everyone together?
This will probably spiral into insanity on this message board, so please join the discussion at rahpilots.com.
Tell me how you think RPC can help negotiations go faster then just the IBT? If we are all one under IBT it is the exact same thing.
Myself and most IBT that I know do not want to "code share" with anyone outside RAH. We want all flying under RAH done by RAH. Why does frontier want to keep this industry wide "code share" thing going and not bring all the flying back to the pilot group?? Tight scope is a must in my book and the Frontier doesn't seem to care about that......
I want ONE union, but I want F9 or anyone from the RAH brotherhood on the table. Any pilot from any certificate under RAH can be on the table as long as the pilot group likes his views of where they want the company to be. That can STILL be accomplished with the IBT.
You also said something about the RPC being a group effort and using a broad range of resources and experience...right?
Well the IBT can be a group effort with a few F9 reps bringing a broad range of resources and experience.
RPC I do appreciate you actually taking to time to have a logical discussion with me!
Last edited by MrBrosef; 06-11-2011 at 08:07 PM.
06-11-2011 | 07:50 PM
#12
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I lovvvvvve this !!
"The current Chautauqua CBA has so many shortcomings it will be impossible to fill all of the leaks in the bucket with just one new CBA. That is the unfortunate reality that your reps will soon experience during Mediation.
The RPC will facilitate your current negotiation, if the IBT reps are interested in participating in a group effort."
Translation:We've given up already.Can't be done.We're just not going to work that hard for you,sorry.Too bad,so sad.If you want to make more money,get hired at Frontier.Ta-ta !
"The current Chautauqua CBA has so many shortcomings it will be impossible to fill all of the leaks in the bucket with just one new CBA. That is the unfortunate reality that your reps will soon experience during Mediation.
The RPC will facilitate your current negotiation, if the IBT reps are interested in participating in a group effort."
Translation:We've given up already.Can't be done.We're just not going to work that hard for you,sorry.Too bad,so sad.If you want to make more money,get hired at Frontier.Ta-ta !
Some of the folks involved have been through this negotiation concept once or twice before.
If you think you are going to get evething you want regarding vacancies, pay, workrules, and scope you are naive.
Your vacancy language is a joke.
You have the lowest pay across the board.
You work rules are the FAR limits.
You sacrificed your entire last contract for "scope".
You are not going to fix the entire contract this time around. Pat at the NMB will let your reps know that fact next month.
No one over hear is giving up, we just know how the system works and exploit that system to all of our benefit.
06-11-2011 | 07:57 PM
#13
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Joined: Nov 2006
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I have nothing against the Frontier pilot group. I think you are a good group of people who at one point worked for a respectable and quality major/low-cost airline. What you guys fail to realize, is that when you were purchased by Republic Airways Holdings, that all went out the window.
I understand the loyalty you guys have to FAPA. They have been good to you over the years, and based on past experiences it is against human nature to put into question if they will fail you in the future.
I feel that FAPA is not capable of representing you, or me, when it comes to an anti-labor management. Your previous management worked with you. Your new management will do nothing but work against you, even if they tell you something different. Unfortunately for everyone, it will take years for you guys to realize this.
RPC? If it was put together a year ago, with all of the kinks worked out, with huge protections for both pilot groups...... I would be one of your biggest fans. When I heard of the purchase, I thought this would be a great opportunity to join with FAPA in having an in house union.
Unfortunately, RPC is viewed by myself and every RAH pilot I have taked to as a last ditch effort to protect FAPA and only FAPA. You guys have made it clear that you are separate, and will do anything you can to remain separate. You have made it clear that you work for a different airline, even though your checks are signed with the same name. You have made it clear that you have paid your dues and deserve better than us. Maybe, but that is not how the world works.
Have you stopped to ask why we care that you are voting on concessions? It does not hurt us. Hell, it actually helps us that you are saving the company money. But are concessions the right thing to do? Are they the right thing to do for every employee, unionized or not, at Frontier? Absolutely not.
We have battled and battled and battled with our management, with our hands tied by the RLA. To see your current union leadership work with them and to OFFER any type of concession makes our blood boil.
We need to work together. If you fail, we fail. If we fail, you fail. Therefore we are on the same team. We need to stand before management as a whole (ibt), not two separate groups(rpc). This is the only way we can protect ourselves, our coworkers, and our industry.
06-12-2011 | 04:28 AM
#14
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Frank, I hate to introduce you to something new called "reallity".
Some of the folks involved have been through this negotiation concept once or twice before.
If you think you are going to get evething you want regarding vacancies, pay, workrules, and scope you are naive.
Your vacancy language is a joke.
You have the lowest pay across the board.
You work rules are the FAR limits.
You sacrificed your entire last contract for "scope".
You are not going to fix the entire contract this time around. Pat at the NMB will let your reps know that fact next month.
No one over hear is giving up, we just know how the system works and exploit that system to all of our benefit.
Some of the folks involved have been through this negotiation concept once or twice before.
If you think you are going to get evething you want regarding vacancies, pay, workrules, and scope you are naive.
Your vacancy language is a joke.
You have the lowest pay across the board.
You work rules are the FAR limits.
You sacrificed your entire last contract for "scope".
You are not going to fix the entire contract this time around. Pat at the NMB will let your reps know that fact next month.
No one over hear is giving up, we just know how the system works and exploit that system to all of our benefit.
06-12-2011 | 04:44 AM
#15
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 143
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If you're "on the bubble",just ask yourself: Why would I have the guys who TURNED DOWN SOUTHWEST to represent me ? Oh,right,it was to save the jobs of all the other F9 employees...The same ones who will take it in the shorts if you vote for concessions.But it's ok,'cuz it's for their own good,hmmm ? TURNED DOWN SOUTHWEST ! For REPUBLIC !!! Bwahahaha !
06-12-2011 | 05:07 AM
#16
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 879
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It's interesting that those some of those pilots whose blood "boils" at the idea of concessions, feel that FAPA should have just laid down and let SWAPA staple us.
Question for frankwasright: Why the double standard?
For those who think that they can do better by just pulling a "Summer of Love" or something similar - yes, UA got industry leading pay as a result, but look at where they were 2 years later, and where they still are today. The junior captain at UA was hired in 1995. At Continental, where the pilots and the company worked much more collaboratively, they pilots generally make more (and usually a lot more), and the junior captain was hired in 2000. In the end, they'll be paid the same, but the junior United pilot will likely "lose" 5 years of seniority in their SLI.
One absolutely key point to make in this is that it's not a net-sum zero proposition like the hard-liners paint it to be (i.e. if it's good for the company, it's bad for the pilots, and vice-versa). Just because the company is willing to sign an LOA doesn't mean it's bad for us.
Take a lesson from history, and vote RPC.
Last edited by FAULTPUSH; 06-12-2011 at 09:15 AM.
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