You are missing the point of my comment. Amerijet was NOT the only airline to strike in the last 3 years. Spirit guys did too. They did a damn good job striking to their guns and walking the walk. We had a number of RAH guy fly up to LGA and walk with them as well.
Great group of guys

Carl,

he's just bitter, which is understandable if you fight so hard for so long and lose. we are all RAH pilots now, time to get over it. Take some time, maybe an APC vacation. The enemy is in IND and does't fly airplanes. Keep your head about you.

Hey, at least a furlough is still better than the Ch. 7 Frontier will be in! Hate the RAH pilots all you want BRO, but the fact is that Bedford exploited the LABOR EFFORTS of the Republic pilots, denying us a contract and respectable wages and work rules, so that he could go buy two bankrupt airlines. We then proceeded to welcome the Frontier/Midwest pilots with open arms, with visions for fair integration and unity. We were met with hostility, disrespect and "we're better than you" attitudes. So believe me, when F9 is Ch. 7, we'll all be much happier.

EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. Trash talk the RAH pilots all you want, but this is the kind of rhetoric we constantly here.

Cross a picket line? Have fun being a SCAB. If you are so adamant about not becoming a Teamster, then QUIT your job. A group of you Frontier pilots will go down in infamy as going beyond all reasonable rationale in defense of your precious airline, even if it means joining the long list of SCABS. Unbelievable.

and, still, not a single Midwest pilot has been recalled.............

60 day clock started today. Once that goes into effect their names are now on the list and will be recalled in IMSL order, and we will welcome those who chose to return onboard. Quite a few are already here and can use their IMSL number.

yep and all the 190s, 135s, and 145s in the branded system and their crews will go as well as the busses. good luck on that furlough

Someone voted for AFA and
1 voted for SWAPA.

:D Humorous

190's yes. however right now we are severely understaffed. It wouldn't be a large furlough if any at all. Wishing furlough or job loss upon anyone is just plain low. At the end of the day not much is going to change immediately for either side. Visit this in a year or so.

I chuckled myself. AFA. :)

The truth comes out!!

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2011/06/28/frontier-airlines-pilots-vote-to-join.html

Roundup,

Seriously? Seriously? You honestly think that threatening to become a pariah will change anything?

I'm no fan of the IBT or RAH in general, but if RAH pilots ever decide to strike, I'll be dropping off sodas and snacks just like I did to the Teamsters drivers when they struck UPS.

Once a scab, always a scab.

The AFA midwest flight attendants had more effective scope than the ALPA pilots, so why not!?

just karma.........ya get what ya deserve

Not Jeff Thomas!

Please, that is really insulting!
We will be happier when 51% is sold.
If we do go Chapter 7 I truly mean this, I want nothing to do nor do I want your help. Same goes for your side as well.

Karma has no interest in these proceedings. As distasteful as it was, there was nothing immoral or illegal about what happened. Don't forget that the Rat and his ilk dismantled an airline and kicked all it's pilots to the curb in the not too distant past. Hold on, maybe karma is at work here.

The reality is it doesn't matter if you guys honor a picket line or not. A strike is a game of chicken between labor and management. If RAH pilots did strike the company would be in serious financial trouble within 24 hours. A week they would be bankrupt. A month out of business. The cold icy of hand of insolvency would then reach up from the grave and bring Frontier airlines a tumbling down. Roundup covering all the Manistee turns in the airbus for free aint going to stop it.

Still talking about a strike, amazing. You guys just don't get it. There will never be an IBT 357 Strike at RAH. Never.

How long has Omni been in mediation? Two years, and that was after two years of direct negotiations. You guys haven't TA's ONE section.

Do you have any idea what RAH will look like by the time you will have any remote chance of being released (2013? 2014?)?

Will RAH even need the Republic certificate after he moves the 190's to the Frontier certificate? How long with the Chautauqua certificate remain in existance? Two large 50 seat CPA's expire between now and 2014.

What if RAH FFD is "restructured" into a EMB 175-170 certificate called Shuttle America? What if Bedford sells the FFD instead of selling the Brand?

A lot can happen in two years, just look at Midwest and Frontier.

As been stated ad naseum we have had 2 different IBT Locals working on the CBA since it became amendable. We pretty much can cancel anything the 747 worked on at this point. When 357 was created (about 2 years ago) we had the SLI to work on right away...which meant amalgamation...which changed the game on a new CBA. When the game plan came up to get 4 sections of the CBA worked on and leave the rest, 357 worked on that. the rest of the secions being adjusted via amalgamation and speeding up the process of a new CBA. now we have a Sr. Mediator assigned and we can only hope she has a good hustle on getting things TA'd. Zoo, you already know this stuff so it isn't like they have been sitting around since 2007. RAH will still need the YX certificate as it had been running along w/o 190s for about 4 years or so. they still have business with US and still have no scope on a/c size like S5 and RP do. Selling FFD would be lame as the guranteed profits are a pretty good deal for a few more years. perhaps by then there will be more RFPs for flying as scope errodes...sadly. Here we have one list with e135-a320 covered and that is a first step to getting a hold of that errosion. Obviously we can't predict the future so who knows where RAH will be as a company in a few months or years.

Frontier Pilots Forced into IBT Representation

The results of a National Mediation Board (“NMB”) representation election provided the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Airline Division (“IBT”) with sufficient votes to prevail as the bargaining representative for the combined class and craft of pilots at Republic Air Holdings, Inc. This election was the result of an ongoing hostile effort by IBT to displace the chosen representative of the Frontier Airlines Pilots, the Frontier Airline Pilots Association (“FAPA”).

The outcome of the election was not surprising as nearly 1800 Republic Pilots were already represented by IBT compared to less than 700 Frontier Pilots represented by FAPA. FAPA had worked to establish a joint council for all the pilots to retain their chosen representatives and received nearly 650 votes for that council. “We spent several days with the IBT trying to come up with a structure that we could agree on, one that would respect the differing views and interests of the two groups. In the end, it came down to the IBT wanting complete control," said Scott Gould, FAPA Vice President.

The results of the election vote, and both pre- and post-election polling, clearly showed no support for IBT representation among Frontier Pilots. “It is a sad day for all labor groups when a labor organization takes a hostile approach to strip another groups chosen representative,” said Jeff Thomas President of Frontier Airline Pilots Association. “While the IBT professes to seek 'Unity', their actions have achieved nothing of the sort and have created an acrimonious environment within the pilot groups.”

FAPA will continue to exist as a voluntary association. Thomas stated: “We will continue to provide a forum for the Frontier Pilots, as Republic proceeds with its recently announced restructuring including the separation of Frontier from the Republic operation.” Republic management has recently embarked on a strategic restructuring, including commitments to operational separation of Frontier from Republic, the raising of new equity, and good faith efforts to divest majority ownership of Frontier from Republic. On June 17, the Frontier Pilots overwhelming ratified agreements negotiated by Frontier, Republic and FAPA as part of that restructuring.

For additional information please email: [email protected]

The "whip saw" theory is interesting and can be viewed in a number of ways.

Local 357 has stated their goal as Jet Blue rates, this establishes an expectation among the pilot group.

Jet Blue only has 190's, no 135/145/170/175's. IF you're able to get Jet Blue rates on the 190's, what is the goal for all the other aircraft rates?

What "peer group" will 357 use for the smaller aircraft, I believe the majority of your most senior pilots are on the 135/145 (not that I have to ask, but if that's incorrect, please correct me).

So now are the different aircraft types pay rates within native RAH being "whip sawed" internally?

F9 BOD and F9 Pilots = No Integrity
 

Frontier Pilots Forced into IBT Representation...................

The results of a National Mediation Board (“NMB”) representation election provided the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Airline Division (“IBT”) with sufficient votes to prevail as the bargaining representative for the combined class and craft of pilots at Republic Air Holdings, Inc. This election was the result of an ongoing hostile effort by IBT to displace the chosen representative of the Frontier Airlines Pilots, the Frontier Airline Pilots Association (“FAPA”).

The outcome of the election was not surprising as nearly 1800 Republic Pilots were already represented by IBT compared to less than 700 Frontier Pilots represented by FAPA. FAPA had worked to establish a joint council for all the pilots to retain their chosen representatives and received nearly 650 votes for that council.

“We spent several days with the IBT trying to come up with a structure that we could agree on, one that would respect the differing views and interests of the two groups. In the end, it came down to the IBT wanting complete control," said Scott Gould, FAPA Vice President.

No, the FAPA BOD and F9 Pilots does not want to abide by the SLI award, wants to avoid the RAH scope clause, and the FAPA board does not want to lead its own group to unity by moving forward. That is the reason F9 lost, that is the reason F9 BOD and F9 pilots does not have any integrity, and that is the reason no other airline pilot group respects the F9 Pilots. You did sign the dotted line to get out of bankruptcy knowing full well the RAH scope clause. You did sign the binding arbitration. You did agree to all of this. Now, that you did not like the outcome, you want the company to divest all of its interest. If you did not want to go by the process, then you all should have liquidated the start over and apply if you can at Southwest. From all the other airlines, you are just USFAPA to lack of a better word - No "Integrity"

The results of the election vote, and both pre- and post-election polling, clearly showed no support for IBT representation among Frontier Pilots.

How could it be? Maybe the reason for that is the F9 BOD does not want to face the reality that you were bought from bankruptcy, you lost the SLI, you lost NMB, you lost the election, and you just plain lost! I know the pride is eating you all up but it is time to move or unless you really want to carry all of that pride and lack of reality till you are 65.

“It is a sad day for all labor groups when a labor organization takes a hostile approach to strip another groups chosen representative,” said Jeff Thomas President of Frontier Airline Pilots Association.

They did not strip you all of any representation. You just plainly lost the election. F9 BOD and F9 pilots tried so hard to convenience the other groups to switch sides with a council approach while failing to understand the other union members. That is the reason F9 BOD failed, failure to grasp the reality and other union members that they are trying to lure to vote. How can they vote for you when you tried to negate the SLI award with the recent LOA and exclude other pilots groups, sue the folks on the SLI, don't abide by the SLI award, tried so hard to remain separate, don't abide by the RAH scope, and above all, you tried to staple the ones you are truing to court. How many voted for ALPA again and not FAPA/RPC?

“While the IBT professes to seek 'Unity', their actions have achieved nothing of the sort and have created an acrimonious environment within the pilot groups.”

FAPA will continue to exist as a voluntary association. Thomas stated: “We will continue to provide a forum for the Frontier Pilots, as Republic proceeds with its recently announced restructuring including the separation of Frontier from the Republic operation.” Republic management has recently embarked on a strategic restructuring, including commitments to operational separation of Frontier from Republic, the raising of new equity, and good faith efforts to divest majority ownership of Frontier from Republic. On June 17, the Frontier Pilots overwhelming ratified agreements negotiated by Frontier, Republic and FAPA as part of that restructuring.

The above statement is the reason you all lost. The reason you all have no integrity. The reason all other pilot groups of all airlines looks down on the F9 BOD and F9 pilots aka USFAPA for their lack of integrity. You were all bankrupt before. Be grateful someone bailed you all out of bankruptcy. Be grateful you have a job. Be grateful you still work. If you don't like it, quit. Apply at Southwest. If they don't take you because of your integrity, go apply at Vision Airlines. Above all, start at the bottom of the seniority for another pilot group.

F9 BOD and F9 pilots are just a bunch whining sore losers!

For additional information please email: [email protected][/QUOTE]

The really sad/amazing part of this is that no Frontier pilot would have had to apply at Southwest...if they would have simply said YES to the Southwest buyout.

Epic failure of all time guys.

Carl

Slum,

I'm not a RAH pilot and never will be. My ID still says Frontier. My paycheck still says Frontier. I'm sure we will either be TU or divested within 2 years. Either way, I will never be an RAH pilot (thankfully).

Your ID will say A Republic Airways Company when your current one expires. They are way too cheap to issue new ones for that reason.

You get paper paychecks? Cool. Who signed it? Look closely.

2 years? I hope you are sold. If you are not, I hope you guys get your collective ego in check.

You are a RAH pilot. You need that explained to you?

Well Ichi, you can bite me you delta weenie. Since hiring at delta had nothing to do with actual skill or experience, I guess that makes you the scab. You took a job you weren't qualified for. As far as RAH, not gonna happen unless the idiots do strike then they'll learn what payback really means. P.S. Gannon is an idiot.

We sure are learning a lot about the personalities of F9 pilots.

Wow Ichiro, do you and Carl know each other? You both subscribe to the theory that if you repeat something over and over again that it must be true.

I get the impression that you think FAPA has an integrity problem. Interesting.

Do you know anything about similar representation disputes involving the IBT? How about the business plan at RAH?

Let me share a few with you, hopefully you will be able to notice the difference between the way the IBT has handled this in the past and how they are handling this issue today with FAPA.

When Polar and Atlas merged, there was a representation dispute. The IBT prevailed over ALPA and a transition structure was formed.

The Polar pilots administrated the Polar contract. The Atlas pilots administrated the Atlas contract. This structure lasted until an amalgamated CBA was negotiated. Both groups reported to the Local 1224. The local 1224 was run by a majority of Abex pilots, a relative neutral party.

This same exact structure was presented to the IBT Airline Division by FAPA.

FAPA would administrate the FAPA CBA. Local 357 would administrate their CBA. This joint structure would operate until contract amalgamation. Both groups would be IBT on day one. The FAPA pilots would pay IBT dues and be IBT members. The IBT Airline Division was interested enough to bring in the attorneys from both sides to discuss the concept in greater detail. Unfortunately, the AD spoke with RH and WH at RAH and learned that RAH had every intention of spinning off Frontier.

If FAPA was designated at the bargaining agent at Frontier and Frontier was sold, the IBT would lose their newly minted IBT members.

The IBT doesn't like losing members, and they like representation elections even less. The IBT Airline Division decided that the council structure that worked so well at Polar/Atlas was not good enough for Frontier pilots because they didn't want to have to start over from scratch again if Frontier was sold.

Integrity? The IBT will argue any side of the case, as long as it favors the IBT.

How about something closer to home. Lets chat about how the IBT handled the Midwest Flight Attendants when RAH purchased Midwest Airlines.

The IBT's attorney, William Wilder (Local 357's attorney as well) argued that the purchase of Midwest was not a covered transaction under A-M. Wilder claimed that Midwest was not an "air carrier", nor was RAH for that matter. If the purchase was not a covered transaction under A-M, LPP's 3 and 13 do not apply and the Midwest FA's are SOL.

You see, the IBT doesn't want what is best for labor. The IBT wants what is best for the IBT, regardless of the cost. No matter how many times they wave their "trade union" flag, their actions speak much louder than their empty words. The Midwest FA's should have been welcomed with open arms, or at the very least been allowed to negotiate, mediate and arbitrate. Unfortunately, it was too big of a risk for the native RAH FA's when you consider the relative seniority of the Midwest FA's. The IBT left them out to dry in an effort to protect the current IBT members. The hypocrisy reached EPIC proportions recently when the IBT filed a new representation dispute for the craft and class of FA's at RAH. They intentionally did not include Frontier FA's this time, because the Frontier FA's are now represented by the AFA. The IBT knows they will lose against the AFA so they plan on increasing their numbers with the most recent representation dispute. Once they prevail unopposed they will submit yet another filing, this time including the Frontier AFA flight attendants. Unfortunately the AFA will be wildly outnumbered and we know the eventual outcome.

Integrity? Throw the Midwest FA's under the bus. Make them start over as new hires. Pick and choose your representation dispute in an effort to guarantee the result by majority rule. The IBT way.

How about the Midwest pilots? The IBT intentionally excluded the Midwest pilots from the recent representation dispute. Their attorney, William Wilder, claimed that the Midwest certificate no longer existed therefor the Midwest pilots no longer existed. The IBT wanted the single transportation system to include Republic, Chautauqa, Shuttle, Lynx, and Frontier. They wanted to leave the senior Midwest pilots on the street. All of this information is in the public domain, go read the IBT filing and read the paragraph from Wilder explaining why the Midwest pilots should be excluded.

Integrity? Trade Unionism?

How about we skip to the most important issue. Money.

The IBT wants to raid FAPA's contingency fund. Even though the Abex pilots (IBT) were allowed to put their funds in a lock box that no other IBT pilot could access, FAPA's funds must become the IBT's funds.

Integrity? Why does the IBT change their argument and strategy so often? The definition of integrity is as follows...

adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

The IBT will not adhere to any principle other than the path that serves the IBT, at any cost.

ALPA jobs lost. Who cares, the IBT benefits.
AFA jobs lost. Who cares, the IBT beneifts.
FAPA money lost. Who cares, the IBT benefits.

If the IBT benefits, than all bets/morals/principles are off.

One separate but related note, Mr. Ichiro. You mentioned the "IBT scope" as if it is superior to the other CBA's involved. The FAPA CBA is still in effect, and will remain in effect until it is amended by the majority of the membership. The IBT scope does not trump our CBA. The IBT scope does not trump the FAPA BoD's responsibility of Fair Representation to the FAPA membership. There is a phrase that the Local 357 will learn in the near future....

""Majority opposition does not defeat the duty of fair representation; the duty exists to restrain the majority.""

We are all IBT today, but that does not diminish the IBT's DUTY to administrate the FAPA CBA. They wanted it, they got it.

Finally, the honorable Mr. Hoffa is up for re-election as we read this post.

What did Mr. Hoffa OPEN his campaign with at the IBT convention yesterday....

"The International Brotherhood of Teamsters opened their 28th International Convention today with plenty of noise and a new resolve to stand up for the American Dream. Teamsters General President Jim Hoffa announced the Teamsters had organized 135,000 new members in the past five years since their last convention – more than any other labor union in North America. Hours later, he announced that more than 3,000 Republic Airways pilots had just voted to join or remain with the Teamsters by a margin of 2-to-1.
“This is how we fight back – we organize,” Hoffa said.
Teamsters International General Secretary-Treasurer Tom Keegel also set the tone early in the day with a vow: “There’s no way they’re going to bust us or take us down because it ain’t gonna happen.”"



You don't think that the IBT AD backed out on their council structure with FAPA because it might hurt Hoffa's re-election, do you?

Integrity?


Zoo
Proud FAPA Member

There is no reason for the existence of the chq certificate when Amr goes away. There will still be a need for both shuttle and republic due to deltas scope clause

If you are a F9 pilot you need to shut the f up. I can't PM you, so please take a step back.

P.S. Gannon is not an idiot. The ball is in his court, lets see what happens next.

Carl, take some time away from APC and google "unsecured creditors committee". You apparently have a ton of free time, why don't you log onto the EPIC (oh the irony) BK website and read the docket related to the F9 auction.

You do realize that labor had NO say in the auction, don't you?

How about UBS and their $300 MM claim?
Credit Suisse?
Did FAPA also "say no" to the Perseus deal? You don't know what the perseus deal is, do you?
How about "group DIP I". Did FAPA approve that? You don't know what Group DIP I is, do you?
How about "group DIP II". Did FAPA approve that? You don't know what group DIP II is, do you?

I will make it easy on you. Try and learn about one of the three financial transactions listed above and identify when FAPA had their chance to say "yes" or "no". Good luck.

Keep typing though. Keep typing....

Hey Boy, No wonder you didn't get on with DA, you failed the psychological test miserably with that statement. Am talking about a strike or a Scab? You must be on a different planet. If you have issues with that guy, I suggest you take it up with him personally.

Seriously, you have a pride problem. Too much of it ain't good for you. Move on and or quit.

[QUOTE=zoooropa;1015586]

The IBT wants to raid FAPA's contingency fund.

good luck................FAPA will have a 2mill$ bonfire before IBT gets ONE PENNY or just pre paid legal fund (DFR)

Are you under some impression that the most words wins?

Learn how to say more with less, dude.

Carl

Why...because Delta didn't hire you?

Step away from the crack pipe dude.

Carl

So FAPA told SWA that they wanted the SWA purchase of Frontier to happen?

Carl

My most sincere apologies Carl. This site should help your issue....

How Ritalin Boosts Cognition - Pharmacology - an eLab Article at Scientist Live

Yes Zoo, I don't know what your trying to accomplish, reasoning with these kids. Maybe you ought to knock it off go drink a beer and grow a pair. Evidently you feel some compulsion to speak for all of the Frontier pilots,,,you don't. Basically this was legitimized theft and don't sweat Ichi, he's not really a delta pilot. But you could get off of your knees because it's too late to beg.

Will Ritalin help you make a point in under 1,000 words?

Carl