TWA & Midwest are hardly all the other ALPA carriers. ;)

This post proves you know absolutely nothing about ALPA. There are definitely negatives to ALPA, but they truly do have invaluable resources of which you clearly know nothing about.

Eaglefly, ALPA got you a seat at AA without an interview. I don't have a problem with that, but it's odd for you to tell us how much we don't need ALPA when you fail to manage what it has done for you. I don't know any of us, myself included, that view ALPA as a panacea. But it's clear that management has absolutely zero intent to treat our PEAs or the PVC with any of our "integrity" value, and we need a voice in our careers.

There is no integrity. It's business, plain & simple. If pilot groups fail to realize that, they will continue to be pushed around by management.

1st, I don't work for JetBlue, I work under the despotic tyranny of ALPA.

2nd, if I'm not mistaken, B6 pilots had the OPTION of changing to a new agreement June 8, 2011 which included a pay bump, or they could stay under the then current agreement. BTW, that pay bump is RETROACTIVE to Jan 1. Retro is not even in the ALPA dictionary.

Really? Then why have ALPA pilot groups received RETRO paychecks before? :)

That massive pay raise is 1.09 percent. At my current rate, including retro, I will receive about 300 dollars after tax. Also, the retro back to January ignores the fact that this raise was supposed to be effective in 2010.

Not in recent history, back in the golden age, yes.

ExpressJet pilots received one back in 2004, & didn't Pinnacle just get one?

Still better than going backward. ALPA lost ground during the NK strike, captains came out with a lower pay scale then the last best offer pre-strike. ALPA put us on display, and when the cameras left, the truth came out. Heck, we were back to work for an entire month before even bullet points of the changes were released.

Please tell me how ALPA screwed you at Spirit? There is such a thing as reasonable expectations. What were your expectations and how did they fail you?

ONCE AGAIN, we went backward. They don't print that in the ALPA propaganda manual we pay to have distributed monthly, but it happened.

the dues for ALPA are 1.95% not 1.97%.

So you received pay raises, but you went backwards? Why? Because you lost some premium pay? You shouldn't have to rely on premium pay for your income. Personally, I hate extra flying. I want as much $$$ for as little work possible.

Keep the change

So now ALPA takes sole responsibility? Not the pilot group? The company's finances?

If you are expecting 300/hour you are probably working at the wrong company.

Nope, The MEC mantra for the last two years of bargaining was PAY PARITY. Middle of the peer group. We fell far short of that.

OK, is this now ALPA national's fault, your own MEC, or your pilot group?

Who were you trying to match? Did your company have a similar or better financial position?

So are you telling me you would do better with an in-house union or none at all? Do 500 pilots have the cash to do this on its own?

Management was after serious concessions, did you give in to them?

This is exactly the Mentality that is ruining this profession and this country, people want to get paid big bucks for doing as little as possible. How about being a productive member of society and your company. Featherbedding is ruining the profession in my opinion. Southwest pilots lead the industry because they are productive, not because they featherbed. Just my opinion.

All Three.

ALPA National applies pressure to the MEC:
- They have to work with the NMB in the future, so they couldn't tell the flight attendant that brokered the deal to pound sand.
- No where in the 6-8 page back-to-work agreement did the "high powered" ALPA attorney put in place a contingency as to what would happen IF the membership did not ratify the TA.

MEC applies pressure to the pilot group:
-"We are in no-mans land if we don't ratify" (should have been fixed above) aka SCARE TACTICS
- MASSIVE SALES JOB on the TA- including misrepresenting other airlines' retirement plans to make NK's look ok in comparison.

Pilot Group:
- Some scared out of their minds
- Some had no confidence in the MEC
- Unfortunately many were apathetic
- A couple (inhabitants of this forum) actually liked it

SWA pilots average 18 days off. That's what I want. I also see how maximizing days off is failing to be a productive member of society. Last time I checked, the government gets a good chunk of my salary. The same can't be said for those who are too good to go flip burgers or work at a retail store but don't mind sucking off the unemployment teet.

Shiz;

do you have historic w-2 comparisons to prove this or are you repeating what you've been told?

http://www.x-entertainment.com/pics/kool1.jpg


You sure about that? DPA has over 3000 cards now. And from what I've seen and heard around campus, that doesn't even begin to touch the number of guys who are unhappy with ALPA. Some are just more willing than others to do something about it, and some have different ideas about what to do.

That's probably right.

So how did they get to an average of over $230K for a Captain? That's MORE than our MD-88/90 Captains were making with C2K! I'm not aware of the SWA pilots getting any big pay increases since then. How did they get there?

I would like some stats and proof to back up that the AVG SWA Capt makes over 230K. Maybe a few do but I bet they work extra to get it, or they are an LCA or something with an override.

But to answer your question. SWA has remained profitable and an even bigger
point is they didn't file Bankruptcy and void contracts with the Bankruptcy Judge,
The have never had an A plan (Which all the ALPA legacies had prior to the Bankruptcies of post 9/11) and only have a 401K match, albeit a decent match.

SWA just like FedEx trailed the legacies until the great devastation that followed 9-11. It was only after FedEx voted ALPA back (for the 2nd time) that we were able to actually negotiate a contract. Our 1st contract under the FPA was basically imposed after our In house Union imploded on itself. Not picking on the SWA pilots by any stretch. SWA is clearly a top choice for a Pilot Job. It is just that they, like FedEx, never really raised the bar, we just haven't let it slip. A profitable company with consistent performance is one Big reason. Having a Union is another.

Happy 4th Everybody. Be safe out there!

If you're making a W-2 argument, was Delta Express a "C" scale? I seemed to remember a lot of those very junior Captains really cleaning up with the efficiency of that operation and prudent use of our contract.;)

They patterned off the rates that were established at UAL & DAL in 2000-2001.

They were able to avoid sliding backwards because their airline didn't go into bankrputcy.

It's a happy circumstance for all of us that SWA has been able to hold on. We'll have a nice reference point.

"Prudent" is an interesting choice of words for how Express made bank. Are you somehow trying to imply that SWA has an organized sickout/greenslip gig going? Because I'm not buying that.

Post of the month !

Are you implying the Delta Express had an organized sickout campaign going on? Because the data doesn't support that. Yes, they used greenslips, just like SWA uses overtime to get to their "average" pay.

I note that you didn't answer the question. Is it W-2 or wage rates? B-scale or not?

You sure about that? I don't remember them getting any huge pay increases back then. I always bought into the conventional wisdom that they were quite a bit behind us (prior to 9/11) in pay. But then again, the only thing I ever saw was the pay rates. That obviously doesn't tell the whole story with SWA and is actually quite misleading because of their TFP thing. I'm beginning to wonder if they were really all that far behind us back then.

Of course, that's really not all that important now. What IS important is that their average Captain makes over $230K/year and their average First Officer makes over $140K/year. When you compare a Delta MD-88/90 Captain averaging 75 hours per month on our current pay rates, you get an $83,000 per year deficit compared to an SWA Captain doing essentially the same kind of flying. For those of you in Rio Linda/Herndon... that's HUGE!

SWA Captain

w-2 2010 $317,000 Total days at work 142 All training and DH included
Not check airman, just working the system.

Yes average captain makes 230,000 Reserve pays 215,000 for a captain picking up nada(nothing)

One other correction, when SWAPA started it started with no funds from the company, all the pilots were volunteers and not paid a dime for their time. The president donated the his house for meetings and stationary.

I agree with your points about the DAL pilots needing a big pay raise. FWIW, a quick google search of these keywords "Southwest Pilots contract 2001" returned this old headline. It doesn't precisely answer your question but I think it does show SWAPA was using ALPA negotiated rates as justification for their pay demands:

July 04, 2002|By NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE
Disagreement over pay remains unresolved. The union, the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association, argued that pilots at Delta Air Lines, for example, earned about $244 an hour flying Boeing 737 jets, which make up Southwest's entire fleet. A Southwest pilot, the union said, earns about $140 an hour.

Pay parity was the key platform plank for the current group of union leaders, who were elected in 2000 on a pledge to win significant raises. With elections again scheduled in September, the pilots' union sought to resume contract talks this spring, but in a much different competitive atmosphere.

Though Southwest was profitable in 2001 and is likely to remain so, Cordle estimates that Southwest's revenue will decline 12 percent this year. Over the past 20 years, the airline's revenue has increased an average 14 percent annually.

In his latest offer to the union, Parker proposed an extension of the current contract by two years, through 2006, and raises totaling 35 percent over the next four years. But that deal did not bring the union close to the levels at other airlines. After a 27-hour meeting last month, the union's board deadlocked on recommending the offer to the pilots.

"As a matter of principle, I think we can do better," said Jonathan Weaks, president of Southwest's pilots union. The union leaders said they nonetheless sent the offer to the members for a vote because they thought that the pilots should have a chance to express their opinions directly. Weaks said he favored a complete overhaul of the contract.

Analysts say Parker can afford to pay Southwest's pilots the same rates as at other airlines, given the carrier's financial strength and labor productivity. Southwest pilots, for example, fly an average of 80 to 90 hours a month, compared with about 50 hours a month at other major airlines.

Southwest also can turn planes around more quickly than its competitors, and its maintenance costs are lower because it focuses on just one type of aircraft. Its low fares attract budget-conscious fliers.

Southwest wants to do everything it can to protect that advantage, said Cordle. Union officials, he maintained, are accustomed to the company's history of friendly relationships and to the idea that employees' compensation is tied to the company's financial success and will not press Southwest for the last penny.

Southwest pilots' vote on contract begins - Page 2 - Baltimore Sun

Your arguments are beyond weak.


JJ

There's no shortage of guys at B6 trying to pick up extra flying to make up for the shortfall in their compensation. They are like lab rats hitting the feeder bar for food pellets unaware that they've been had.


JJ

Just well known examples.

Actually, if you want a better example of ALPA's hideous faliure across the board, one only need to look at the RJ which single-handedly destroyed the profession. From its inception where it should have been controlled to its expansion where it should have been included, they not ony botched that from stem to stern, but aggrivate that faliure consistantly even now.

Those clowns could f&%# up a cup of coffee.

.....and another impressionable young lad bellies up to the good humor truck with dreams and fantasies. They'll do nothing more for you then a good in-house union will, except strip you of more money to support their bloated lifestyles.

Working for an airline and having ALPA on the property is like living on a block with two bullies. One jacks you up everyday and the other promises to be there to protect you for a portion of your lunch money, but rarely seem to be around when you need them most and in time you'll learn this.

It's just a suggestion, but I think a toasted almond or bomb pop isn't the best choice for you. Ask the guy in the musical truck for a dreamsicle...........I think you'll find it more to your liking. ;)

ALPA botched that just as badly as they have everything else. For the record, ALPA got about 130 Eagle pilots AA jobs during the first 14 years of that agreement, while the APA got about 400 or so at Eagle. The Eagle pilots started at the bottom of the total list, while the AA furloughees started at the bottom of the captains list. ALPA got a "D-" for their flowthru negotiating abilities. The only thing worse, was their policing of the agreement, where they get an "F". No sour grapes, because that was the agreement........actually, my hats off to the APA for a job well done on that one.

A 16-year contract that the fat guy from national (food stained tie and all) held over his head and proclaimed the best thing since sliced bread and a series of amendment rounds that slowly gave back many of the palatable parts of the CBA was what ALPA "managed to do for me"..........oh, that and a $32,000 magazine subscription and an occasional reminder to pay or face termination when they botched my dues payment.

Believe what you wish. If another group of suckers falls down the same hole as so many of us have who have the bumps and bruises to prove it want to experience it for themselves, I say go for it. You'll never be allowed to strike though as ALPA can't give you that (just like all the other ALPA carriers who've been in negotiations for years and wont be released to self-help). The actual ability to strike is the only thing that gets true results and ALPA has no juice anymore and is simply now a dues collection business attempting to support itself as its primary priority.

The difficult part is making it LOOK like they're actually doing something for you. Thankfully, I'm done with that forever, but I can still watch with amusement from the sidelines as the frustration of others who actually WANT to experience this for themselves when they don't get what they thought they would.

.....Spirit?.....

Honestly slow, I wasnt avoiding your question, I just didnt take it as a real question.

Wage rates combined with work rule determine contract value. Seniority on equipment determines the individuals ability to exercise the work rules to maximize his income or quality of life choice.

Mean w-2 is a useful comparison metric. It takes into account broad behavior patterns based upon work rules.

I dont know what you mean by B scale or not. If you mean was express a b scale, I would say it was a c scale with different work rules that was bid in seniority order. This answer isnt meant to avert your question, but it is my viewpoint that every system seeks equilibrium.

If we had C-172s that paid $400/hour and 747-400s that paid $100/hour, I think the cessna would generally go senior to the 747.

IOW Sailing doesnt know what he is talking about.:eek: