Jetblue and ALPA election
 

I am hoping that the silent majority at JetBlue is about to speak up by voting NO to ALPA. There is a minority group (I hope) that wants to vote in ALPA and they are making lots of noise right now in hopes of getting everyone on that train. Don't let the wreckless judgement of a small group decide our fate and future of this airline. We are better off handling our issues with management directly, electing ALPA as our union is not the answer here. I speak from experience and I have been employed by 4 previous ALPA carriers and they didn't protect my job against mergers, layoffs, out-sourcing, etc. As a matter of fact, they allowed it and I lost my job three different times. Let this serve as a wake up call to Senior Management that we need to resolve the few issues on the table, or next time it could be a reality. We have a very educated pilot group here and I hope that most everyone here realizes that ALPA is not the answer to solve our issues at hand. Ask yourself the question, "Is it that bad here that we need to vote in ALPA?" Take a look at the other ALPA union carriers. Do they seem happy to you? Do they have it better than us? I personally don't think so. ALPA is losing ground and they are desperate to get on our property...don't let them! VOTE NO! We can always bring them in later if need be, let's use this opportunity to our advantage.

Come on man. Who is going to pay for their 5 star hotel meetings, 9 course dinners, $2500,- car allovance, Suite in DC, enormous salaries, etc, etc when we (DAL) elect DPA and let ALPA go? Somebody has to pay for all their luxury. As for helping Joe pilot, we all know how interested they are in doing that.

Best of luck to all of you !

And if you didn't get the above joke, just put an X next to the "NO" sign on your ballot.

Well put, I think that speaks volumes!

Wait foir it! Wait for it! In 3... 2... 1..., here come the demands and arguing from the pro ALPA v. independent "dump ALPA" crowd.

Move the thread now before the food fight you moderator types.

If there is a merger in your future, you would be better protected with ANY union on property. I'm no fan of ALPA though, they did exactly nothing worthwhile for me in the 8 years they represented me.

well that's a maybe as far as a merger...that doesn't warrant voting in ALPA due to fearing a possible merger.

Does Bond-McCaskill not apply to JetBlue pilots?

Carl

You are clueless my friend. Good luck to any pilot group in today's industry without union representation.

Hhmmm, maybe not. Who would represent the JBLU pilots in arbitration without a collective agent?

Roll them dice baby.;)

I didn't say we don't need a union...I said we don't need ALPA as a union. I will fully support an in house union. I know that was tried several years ago and didn't pass. However, these are different times and I believe this time, an in house union would pass with a large majority. Since everyone likes to look at SWA as an example, look what they have achieved with there in house union. They have far better work rules, pay, productivity, and working relationships than any other ALPA, APA, Teamsters Union Airline.

Even with ALPA and Bond-McCaskill, I am sure ALPA could find a way to royally F it up. It is ALPA's wet dream to get AA back under their wing, and if an AA/JB merger happened I wouldnt be surprised to see ALPA throw JB under the bus in an attempt to appease the APA pilots and win them back.

Sure they would, they have already F'd it up with the American/TWA merger. TWA has filed a suit against ALPA for unfair seniority merger I believe. However, I really would like to avoid this direction. I simply want to look at JetBlue and what's best for our company and union representation. I would pay more out of my pocket for in house vs. 2% to ALPA.

I would gladly pay 5k out of pocket as part of a start up contribution for in-house representation as opposed to bringing Alpa on property. I think majority of pilots feel we need representation of some sort and Alpa just happens to be the easiest/cheapest/quickest option right now. I think we owe ourselves more than that.

Definitely...and remember, you get what you pay for! Quick, easy, cheap representation.
ALPA is not what we need here at JBU. They do not have our best interests, we have our best interests and we need to change this movement from ALPA to in house! Talk to any of the other major airlines with ALPA. US Air voted ALPA out, Delta is working to vote ALPA out. ALPA is not the union it used to be back during the days of big Legacy Airlines and pre 9-11 and it will not ever return to that.

+1

ALPA is the Walmart of representation.

I am confused on what ALPA has done for any of the recent airlines that have merged? They have all gone to arbitration and an arbitrator decided the seniority list. Not trying to flame just wanting to be educated.

What does maybe mean reroute? Does Bond-McCaskill state that the legislation doesn't apply to non union pilots? If it does, I sure haven't read it.

I'm sure you'll post the evidence if I'm wrong.

Carl

All true.

Carl

Exactly what they did to the TWA pilots. Exactly.

Carl

Don't forget that just recently AirTran voted ALPA IN, the guys at FDX voted ALPA IN, both had independent unions and BOTH groups have fared MUCH better with ALPA rather than being on their own. APA has hired the ALPA law firm to help negotiate a new deal.

DAL has about 2500 guys out of 12300 who are unhappy with ALPA. That will NOT get ALPA off property.

SWA has NEVER established a new bar. They were compensated 20-30% less than other major airline pilots since their inception. They are at the top right now because others fell back, not because they have "outperformed" ALPA as an independent bargaining agent.

What did ALPA do for NK recently?


** After FOUR YEARS of bargaining, the CBA was finally resolved by a former flight attendant, turned NMB member. Per the arm-twisting road show, the ALPA attorney was told by the NMB member that she got every penny out of the company that they were going to give. Since when does the referee get involved in playing the game?


** ALPA removed premium pay for overtime, in favor of a small hourly rate increase. (BTW, NK Captains’ pay scale WENT DOWN compared to the company’s last offer PRE-STRIKE. That’s right, the captain pay scale WENT DOWN during the strike).


** Removed a hard 10% requirement for reserve coverage for trip drops / vacation in favor of a system where the min coverage is set by the company per day / per seat / per base, solely at the discretion of the Company.



** ALPA did not even attempt to secure stock / options / ESOP (against the will of the pilot group) based on THEIR definitive belief “THIS COMPANY WILL NEVER IPO”


** The ALPA reps, during the road show intentionally mislead their constituents. One example: they paraded a couple pro-ALPA B6 guys in, to give a ‘the grass isn’t greener’ speech to the group. They then asked the B6 guys slanted questions regarding the B6 401K, making it sound like NK’s retirement plan was far superior. Only problem was they neglected to inform the NK audience that B6 also has a bonus and ESOP that, when included to the retirement picture, blows NK’s plan out of the water.

**NK did get marginally better transition language which is just now being implemented after a nine month arbitration process.

All this "help" only costs 1.97%!

If I was at AirTran I would have voted ALPA in as well...they were treated and abused like a red headed step child. I have many friends there and that was a good move for them I believe. We aren't even close to being treated like they were. As far as FedEx, they left ALPA once before and yes they voted them back in. I look at FedEx as an exception. The pilot/managment relationship at AA will never in a hundred years work together. They have nothing to loose by soliciting the help of ALPA. SWA has definitely set a high bar. True other airlines have fallen back, SWA have had continued raises that has pushed them to new levels as well as ahead of other airlines. They used to be one of the lowest, they are now one of the highest paid for 737 pilots.

You are dreaming windrider, ALPA had over 70% interest cards. Nice try BoB ! (Band of Blue, same guys that were opposed to our in-house union attempt in 2008)

The legislation states several times that the two groups being merged have to be represented "collectively." Although just semantics we at jetblue are not represented "collectively", in fact the company sees us as 2300 independent contractors. They are in court right now on another matter specifically stating that we are not represented "collectively." So what happens if a merger happens. Well with out ALPA some here at jetblue would say we are covered by McCaskill-Bond right? Then the other company's union lawyer will say, "Hey your own company is in court arguing you aren't represented "collectively" so McCaskill-Bond doesn't apply. Off to arbitration it goes and each JB pilot will have to come up with money on their own to hire a Lawyer and fight for a fair integration. That's not a risk I am willing to take. An independent union would be nice but it was voted down last time, it would be very costly to start, and for every Southwest success story there is a FedEx or Airtran whose in house unions were voted out fairly quickly. BTW SWAPA was almost fully funded by SWA management when it was founded, does anyone think that JetBlue's management would do the same?

All this is IF a merger might happen. But IF I get in a car accident I have insurance, IF I get sick I have Insurance. I simply look at my yes vote as insurance on my future.

Superduck...interest cards are just that...interest. Means that people are interested in hearing what they have to say. Hell..I'm interested to hear what they have to say but that doesn't mean I'm voting for them. As a matter of fact, I've not heard one thing about what they have to say. I have however heard what our Pro-ALPA pilots here have to say...but not ALPA. The only thing that matters is a vote during the election. And fyi...I wasn't here in 08.

ALPA = Insurance??? You gotta be kiddin me...you are better off with AFLAC.

Enough said. Let's see where you stand in a few years.

Don't let facts get in the way of their emotional responses. We are talking direct relationship vs representation. Go ahead, cut off your nose to spite your face.

This is quite possibly the worst post I've ever read online.


JJ

over and out...i've said all i want to say about it. guess we'll see what the majority wants and if that's what they want then i would love to be proved wrong on my positions.

There it is...

Windrider,
For what it's worth, I have seen in-house union representation (was a union rep. there, for a while) and have worked for 4 ALPA carriers. I would recommend a national union based on my experiences.
While ALPA has it's shortcomings and has often been out manuevered, I suspect their defeats have been more influenced by overall changes in attitudes toward labor and the filling of judcial vacancies by ideologically anti-labor/pro-corporation judges.
What I observed at the inhouse union airline was that things worked reasonably well for the first 5 or 6 years. We were then involved with a buyout by a company set up by senior management who at the same time brokered a deal to spin off our 121 aircraft and downsize to our original 19 pax part 135 commuter airline. At the same time they basically ignored our contract and previous good working relations. It took about 2 months for us to realize that our in house union was broke and we could not afford to fight the company on every grevience. We had to choose our battles, which were reduced to very few.
The moral of the story: if your management chooses to aggressively screw the contract at an in house union, they can bankrupt the union financially.(legal representation is very expensive). You also lose out on decades of experience that a national union has regarding contracts and medical advice for members plus much deeper pockets.

Windrider, I used to feel the exact same way. The last election where JBPA was voted down was the wake up call. My philosophy then was to vote 'no' and see what he company would do. I did, I saw, now it's time to try something else.


I agree completely. You can certainly point to ALPA's checkered past but what he have isn't so much 'innovative' as experimental and un-tested.

For any of you that have been at Jetblue for several years, do you remember receiving a DHL package which contained your new working agreement? Wouldn't it be nice to have a say in your agreement rather than having powerless committees? How those stock options working out for you?

ALPA gets a bad rap, and many times they deserve it. But they do have more resources than an independent union. Something to think about, after all, it's your decision and you have to live with it....

And where do those resources come from, I wonder...

Those "resources" have proven completely worthless for virtually all the other ALPA carriers I know of. Ask pilots from TWA and Midwest how ALPA's resources worked for them.

ALPA has in fact, become pointless for collective bargaining. They should stick to the role of a safety advocate as they offer nothing for pilots to better themselves (and even attempt to stiff their lower-end workers). With grotesquely bloated salaries, perks and bennies for the upper staff, they're nothing more then an aviation Enron.

Where would an independent union's resources come from?

It's not a conspiracy, it is obvious that the money is collected out of paychecks in the form of dues. I pay just under 2%, and while I certainly don't agree with everything ALPA does, I find it a worthwhile expenditure.

I'd prefer a CBA, not a working agreement. Jetblue can and HAS altered that agreement when they feel the need to do so.

Yes, B6 altered the agreement - they got a pay raise.
Even with a working agreement vs a CBA, they are still far ahead of many ALPA carriers, even before the 1.97% ALPA TAX is considered.

TWA was a failing carrier and merged with a non ALPA carrier. Not sure they could do much for them. NWA had a better merger with Delta. They are never perfect, ask anyone and they'll probably tell you that they got screwed. But, in reality, it was as about as good as you can get.

Sorry I don't know what ALPA was supposed to do for Midwest. Would an independent union have helped?

Would you rather pay low end workers 100K/year? Aren't they supposed to keep salaries (that we all pay) in check?

Again, I am no huge fan of ALPA. I do see them as the best alternative.

I don't think so. I don't recall the pay raise... Were you working there when they decided to let the pilots know of the agreement changes and pay rates for the EMB 190? I think it was 2004 or so?