Sure, they'll let a small carrier that won't impact much of the economy walk. Spirit's absence barely dinged Detrot and almost impacted Fort Lauderdale. The NMB needs one at there every now and then to keep up the appearance of fairness. Jet Blue would cause major problems at JFK and the northeast, so forget that.

If they want to shell out their hard earned ca$h to ALPA for banners and slogans, so be it. ALPA won't give them anymore then any other bargaining representative either in or out of house.

That wasn't so much a strike, as a well choreographed publicity stunt.

I see you have all the answers. While ALPA is by no means perfect, it is by far the best alternative out there. Without a large collective voice, I doubt we would have had the few legislative victories that this profession has had. They made plenty of mistakes, but all in all, I am not complaining too much. I work for Fedex and ALPA has been far better than our independent union.

Whine all you like, but tell me how great American's union has been.

Most of our failures aren't ALPA nationals fault, but those of our own MECs and pilot groups.

But go ahead and whine if it makes you feel better...

You're a smart man, golfandfly.

What I don't get is why the ALPA haters either can't or won't understand this simple concept.

On the contrary. After two and a half decades with ALPA, I have NO answers, but the Herndon Huckster's will be pleased to hear of your approval, however you're a minority in the industry. I believe they're finishing up the back nine at Sterling Park.......if you hurry, you could text them pleasant tidings before their shower and the evening buffet. It's good to know the entire top echelon are all millionaires.

Too bad that grotesque wealth didn't trickle down to most pilots, but hey, a fool and his money. It's just I hate to see a new pilot group not learn from the lessons of the past and make avoidable mistakes and lining ALPA's pockets is a mistake.

This statement only strengthens my points. Either ALPA national was so worthless that they were unable to properly guide those that fall under their umbrella (local MEC's and pilot groups), in which case they're no better then an independent union as the results were the same and thus no point in having them -or- they CHOSE to guide those groups in a direction that was in THEIR best interest.

It's clueless to think national sits back and has no influence on the MEC's, letting them jump or fall over any cliff of their choice. The fact is, ALPA is a business in and of itself and the purpose of a business is profit (or at least self-sustainance). The top fatcats compensation packages are quite enviable indeed and FAR more compensation then deserved considering their results.

Perhaps you could do a little research and enlighten us all ? Specifically, could you find out what financial sacrifices have been made in Herndon over the last 10 years while the majority of airline pilots have seen their profession decimated to complete shambles with the career now relegated to little more then Greyhound drivers under ALPA's WATCH ?

I'll bet virtually NONE. Oh sure, the top tier freight guys have done well, but those flying passengers have been hosed six ways till Tuesday. Come to think of it, Fed Ex is the only decent place around besides SWA and UPS and those AREN'T ALPA are they ?

If you want to be ALPA's bugle blower, that's fine, but those about to fall into the trap deserve another POV.

You're not worried ALPA will be sued spitless into BK or financially collapse under their own lard requiring them to double your dues are you ?

Seems to me, that would be one motive to whistle a happy Herndon tune and why not ?

Self-interest is what got ALPA where it is today.

bingo!!!...

Now your talking ALPA PAC, a completely different, broken, bloated entity.

To put it kindly.

Carl

Because most pilots are stupid.:)

If most failures are due to the fault of the particular MEC and pilot group...what is ALPA doing for the 2% dues money?

This is a very easy question Fishfreighter, so try to focus on an answer that actually pertains to the question.

Carl

I'd say that any future legislation concerning Flight/Duty periods will be shaped by ALPA to some degree. I'd say amendments to exempt certain carriers were shaped by ALPA.

Like it or not, lobbies (MONEY) shape legislation. ALPA has the money, the independents don't. I'm not saying they will win versus the air carriers, but they will certainly do better than a few independent unions that don't pay squat for political lobbies....

Again, I am not in the ALPA fan club, but if you have a better alternative, tell me about it.

Whine, whine, whine...

I see you are now a proud member of the APA. How's that contract coming along? I'd say not so good. Is this ALPA's fault also?

What percent are you paying for your representation? I'd ask for a refund!

Maybe instead of bashing ALPA for all of the industry's problems, maybe you can say that most everyone has taken a hit in this post 9-11 economy.

SWA, FDX, and UPS haven't really taken it in the shorts. But what do they have in common? Maybe a strong business model and profitable companies? Instead of being such a hateful person, maybe you can see that even a large union can't save the industry.

ALPA CAVED on FT/DT. ALPA ended up SUPPORTING the ADDITION of up to 2 additional hours of duty for a two man crew. They shaped it all right. They shaped it to give management the ability to do coast to coast turnarounds all in one duty time.

ALPA also caved in on the 1500 hour rule after stating they were in complete support of it. I could go on.

Given the above, you might think that ALPA's money is being given to them by management.

Given what happened to TWA pilots and given the fact that a merger with AMR is a strong likelihood for JetBlue, I'd rather see you KNOWING who your bargaining agent is really working for.

Carl

You keep talking about ALPA as it's the only entity dealing with political issues. How about SWAPA, APA, or the IPA? Why are all legislative failures associated with ALPA?

Probably because they are the only organization within earshot of Congress.

Ask yourself, is the direct relationship better? Oh that's right you haven't been around long enough to know. Ask around.

IPA and CAPA are still hip-deep in the FT/DT issues. They have not failed because they never changed their positions. They were totally opposed to adding two hours to duty times, and they still are opposed. ALPA was also totally opposed, then ended up SUPPORTING it.

Now do you see the difference?

Carl

The ALPA national position seems to change quite a bit. Who knows what their position even is, what is their position on scope? At one time they supported the 1500 hour rule then the next thing you know they release some publication and deep in the details is their proposed amendment allowing for people to get their ATP with only 750 hours. Whose side is ALPA on? Why would I give money to the PAC when I don't know where ALPA stands on issues? Why don't they ever poll their members to see what the membership thinks?

1. ALPA is on ALPA's side, that's all.

2. ALPA won't poll its members, because they are not in the business of caring what you think, they are in the business of telling you what you should think. In fact, they would prefer that you didn't think (or ask questions) at all. Just sign up for dues checkoff, and let the machine run. Also, you shouldn't be reading those publications. They are written by highly enlightened persons, operating at a higher level.

Nice flip. That what people do when they have no argument.........buck, wing and flip. Isn't there a training class in Herndon for that ?

I've heard if you pass that one, then you're invited to the "duck, dodge and hide" course.

There's no "hate" in me as I'm happier now away from ALPA then the decades of worthlessness within it. The point isn't the deficiencies of the APA (there are plenty). The question is, can a pilot group do just AS GOOD with in-house representation or another union as opposed to ALPA ?

The answer is a resounding YES !

The APA has done no worse for AA pilots then ALPA has for others (currently the best scope out there and cheaper too !) and SWA pilots and UPS have done just fine without the bloated overpaid and underperformers in Herndon, but if a pilot group wants to pay more money for equal or worse results, that's their choice and destiny, but it's especially sad with all the current information and repeated demonstrations of lack of ability ALPA has out there now as opposed those stuck with them for the last 10-40 years.

In America, everyone is free to become a sap as well as make an INFORMED choice to avoid becoming one.

This is of no surprise. ALPA is a business first and protects ITS interest first. When you have the grossly overpaid and bloated structure they have, unfortunately capitualation occurs much earlier in the process then it should.

Those that know this and THEN willingly sign on deserve what they get.

*chuckle*

Well, I've only had about 24 years experience with ALPA, including several contracts and another half dozen negotiating rounds for amendments to that contract.

Perhaps you can enlighten me Yoda ?

24 years? You're just tearing it up!

My ALPA card.......how'd you guess ?

They even botched my final bill and tried to milk me for extra dues not owed. From my experience, their clumsiness runs across all departments. I'd be tickled if the TWA pilots won their suit (like the UAL pilots). Doubling your dues will help avoid pay cuts below $400,000 for big tuna's though.

Why not, as they're certainly worth it, yes?

IMO, I think they'll wait till after any Jet Blue vote though........no sense in scaring them off before then. ;)

Do you have a website to get up to date info on the proceedings?

The UAL pilots didn't win. There was a settlement that paid them about 20 cents per dollar of their claim.

I heard that the lead plaintiff in the TWA case didn't even show for court...:confused:

Oh yawn... ALPA ruined your life... Gloom, despair, and agony on me....

A lit overdramatic aren't we ?

No, they didn't ruin my life (but also improved it not at all) and you know what ? They won't ruin Jet Blue if they're foolish enough to join ALPA, but equal performance may be obtained for less money. When it comes to the best bang for your buck, ALPA is a poor investment. I must say though, the depth of your indoctrination is impressive.

Perhaps a promotion is in order ?

At any rate, this tit-for-tat is becoming as pointless as ALPA. Let's agree you feel they have value above all other bargaining representatives and I feel they've become an obsolete, excessively bloated, self-serving profit entity whose performance and influence can be equaled or bettered for less $$$.

I can live with that and am thrilled I no longer have to support it.

You really need a new set of talking points, because Herndon sent you a bad set. SWAPA, APA, IPA and the IBT all lobbied for more restrictive rules. ALPA was in bed with the industry and had a bunch of Congressmen, Senators and their staffers who busted their cans to get us something better REALLY steamed.

ALPA came to the party kicking and screaming only after they were forced to by the other groups demanding something better.

They've gotten too cozy with legislators and are more interested in not rocking that very private boat as opposed to looking out for their dues-payers first.

ALPA has lost it's way.........

Fundamentally speaking if anything else, PLEASE Vote NO to the AFL-CIO machine's aviation tentacle. This evil octopus is destroying capitalism as we know it, one corporation/state/country at a time. Wake up and keep the tentacles out of this company while it's still profitable, growing, and well-beyond tolerable. In-House is the only option that will BEST serve the interests and desires/needs of B6 pilots! PERIOD! I don't care if the In-House drive failed before, SO DID THE LAST F'IN ALPA DRIVE! Make an In-House drive count this time and do it right - Get in bed with the boys and girls at SWAPA to get a lay of the land as far as framework, structure, and financials to get the ball rolling. This isn't rocket science; the B6 model and culture isn't too far off from SWA. I'm so tired of seeing the apathy of educated professionals. ALPA has become a big show, and I think the many who've actually worked for an ALPA carrier and have been hosed on ALPA's watch realized this long ago.

Your Company pays you, not ALPA. Poorly-managed, weak Companies with poor business models do whatever they need to do to survive when the wheels start falling off. All ALPA can do is file a grievance and burn through your money to make you feel they're actually trying to settle the issue... meanwhile, you still got hosed and they usually settle with a cease and desist or a modest make-whole payout of pennies on the dollar... that is, if they don't negotiate (settle) away pending grievances during contract time. Yep, it's happened. When the Company is no longer thriving, guess where they cut the fat from first!? B6 is still and will continue to be a thriving, growing, and profitable Company. Don't let ALPA get in there take 1.95-2% of what you work hard for, in return for empty promises. Instead, invest that money and make even more while doing your part to stimulate our economy.

This is just my opinion and I felt the need to share it with you before another one falls into the ALPA web. Call me a moron, hater, call me whatever you like. I'm not anti-union for a needed application, but I do not personally support ALPA anymore based on my first-hand experience and those of many colleagues of mine. Follow the money, your dues money... then find a toilet to ralf in... Is it really worth it? Get to a toilet Now!


In-House is! Write-In JBPU?

One more can to condsume, then bed...

Although ALPA did not hire you and doesn't pay your salary, they sought and obtained the right to fire you if you don't pay them. It is understandable to charge shop-fee's to non-members, but obscene, communist thuggery to seek the ability to fire people you neither hired nor pay.

IMO, THAT is the real ALPA (domination and financial strangulation to protect self-interest).

You mean AFTER those unions were leading the charge to change age 60 to age 65 while ALPA was till opposed to it at that time?

Really? APA, SWAPA, IPA and IBT were all leading the charge to change the retirement age to 65? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't remember that. Are you sure?

Carl

Come on, Carl, don't be disingenuous. SWA pilots were the ones who originally set up the organization who initially lobbied for the change. You know that. Perhaps SWAPA wasn't technically responsible, but they didn't come out against it.

You're kidding, right? I clearly remember APA, at least, fighting the good fight ALL the way to the end. This while ALPA conducted a survey, and disregarded that the majority of respondents wanted ALPA to maintain its stance against age 65. However, they did do everything possible to justify their change in position, to try and legitimate how the desires of the few dictate the policy of the many...

Try to stay on topic Fishfreighter. Here is what I posted again for your review:

Your statement about me being disingenuous is non-responsive to my question. Please post where "SWA pilots were the ones who originally set up the organization who lobbied for the change."

Carl

That's my recollection as well. APA was totally against age 65 from my memory.

Carl

SWAPA has been leading the charge on raising the age to 65 since the 80s and they boast of leading the charge to raised the age.