ALPA election and JetBlue
 

For those pilots that have yet to vote in the ALPA election, please understand that if you vote YES to other/third party representation instead of NO for ALPA, your vote is basically worthless. ALPA put this option on the ballet to void your vote. If you vote this, while it is not a vote for ALPA, it's one less NO vote we have against ALPA. If the NO votes are less than the YES votes for ALPA we lose. This should not even be allowed and it's BS. Some pilots think that if they vote for third party it refers to an inhouse union. This isn't true. This is strictly a vote for or against ALPA and nothing else. Please pay attention and vote correctly. And for the record, I voted NO.

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thanks pineapple guy...corrected!

ALPA create a dubious situation to get themselves into Jet Blue's pilots wallets ?

Say it ain't so.

ALPA's going to need a lot of money soon and they're counting on these new wallets to take a big hit and fluff up their soon to be empty coffers.

Give a lot and give often to the needy.

"ALPA put this option on the ballet to void your vote." No, the NMB put that option on the ballot as they always allow an option for another union.

ALPA isnt perfect but its better then no representation. Notice that the option for direct relationship is no representation. Is that a coincidence? No thats how the NMB veiws it and hopefully most JetBlue pilots.
Cheers

That is false. The rules have changed. I dont get to vote and dont really care either way, but dont spread lies either way.

If you want ALPA vote for ALPA, if you dont you must vote no. The rules have changed so only a majority of those voting is required.

What is the general feeling on the property. Are the JetBlue pilots saying yes or no to this election?

Yes, it's the best way for the bankrupt elephant to get it's trunk into the Jet Blue tent. Most who vote, will probably vote "yes" and they know that. So, those disgusted who aren't interested in ALPO tend to stay away, but then the 40% who do vote, 25% of them vote "yes" and the elephant has a new pail of water to put its trunk into.

A crafty elephant it is.

I'm waiting for the Jet Blue pilots reaction to paying perhaps 4-5% of their income when dues likely skyrocket soon. $5000 is a lot of annual cash for a $100K/year captain. For $420/month, you could be making payments on a new Porsche or BMW.

What a wild show that's going to be.

I'd say there are a lot of apathetic ones who dont really want ALPA, but are too lazy to vote. Of course the ALPA fans are going to vote. If every pilot was required to cast a vote I dont think ALPA would pass. But, a vote only counts if you actually vote, so I think it will be really close.

I love how people assume former TWA pilots are going to get a massive settlement which will bankrupt ALPA.

Thanks it will be interesting to see the result.

No kidding. Even though ALPA lost, the settlement "award" will be tied up in court for YEARS, perhaps DECADES.

I wouldn't worry about that too much at this point.

...and I love how some people think ALPA is all Incense and Peppermints.

From what I've heard, I'm surprised they're not going to jail. There's been allegations of deliberate attempts to decieve a civil court and destruction of evidence (which would indicate a conspiracy). Considering the court documents and the result, the assumption that ALPA WILL NOT face a devistaing fine/award is more of an assumption then the opposite.

Yeah, how crazy is that? These are the same crazy people that thought TWA pilots would win the suit. Oh yeah, they did! Airline pilot salaries, retirement contributions, benefits, etc for 2400 pilots, for 9 years is a lot of money. No assumptions here. There is no doubt that TWA pilots will get a massive settlement. It's how ALPA is going to pay for it that is speculation. More than likely there will be hugh assessments from ALPA members. Remember: ALPA did this to their OWN members, the ones that paid them to protect them. It was done WITH INTENT, which means intentionally. Nobody here is watching too much Law and Order. This really happens.

Or insurance, which nearly all businesses, including ALPA, maintain in case of lawsuits.

Without ALPA, where would TWA be? I doubt any of them would be at AA now, and they would have never had recall rights. Did they screw the pooch with the AA/TWA merger? Absolutely, but I don't think TWA is worse off because of ALPA.

Heard the figure of 1.2 billion as potential liability.

How much insurance does ALPA have ?

It's always cute when someone votes for themselves and the vote turns out:
ALPA 1,983
JETBLUE STUDENT COUNCIL 105
HEYWOOD JABLOWME 1

Darn it, Bar! Now I have to clean coffee out of the keyboard AGAIN!

Again, the only real questions:

1. How long can ALPA tie up the damage award in the court system?
Answer: A long, long, LONG time.

2. How much of the liability rests with the TWA MEC members and how much DFDR insurance to THEY have?

Those are the fundamental questions that remain unresolved.

Agreed, except I think Heywood Jablome will get the 1,983 votes.

I never said ALPA was 'incense & peppermints'. All corporations have insurance for things like this. Not to mention how long this will get tied up in Appeals court. I think I know who has deeper pockets. It will likely settle out of court.

Do you honestly think a judge will award that much money? Ford Motor Company poisoned living grounds of a community resulting in hundreds of deaths, & they settled out of court for a measly $6 million dollars. Most in the community didn't see enough to cover a month of medical bills. It will likely settle out of court for much less then you think.

I also don't get to vote... I was hired on the other side of the turning in of the cards.

I do care with a lot of passion - this is going to affect my whole career.

I am very disappointed by the way that the whole election is being held. Every day I am subject to more and more propaganda then even during the height of the Obama-McCain election.

I have worked in graphic design... all of this copy, the emails, the posters... it's all coming from somewhere. And all of that work costs big bucks. A lot of money is being spent to 'protect' me... or at least that's what I am being told. (again, I don't get to vote... so no matter what happens, I can complain either way... a win/win) The part that I don't trust, is where someone tells me, (and spends lots of money one!) things that they are doing things for my interest, telling me they are protecting me out of my own interest. Wait! You are doing all of this for 'little ole' me'.... hmmm.... what's the catch? (I'm still asking myself that)

Here's my other problem: All of this propaganda says that the relationship that we have with the company is going to be thrown away if the union is voted in. It's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Does the company management think that I am not going to give my best and my all if a union is voted in? My own personal success in my career is tied to the success of the airline. I voted with my brain and my feet by coming here when I was offered a job... I am happy to be here and plan on spending the rest of my career here. I want to build a strong airline that lasts through my retirement and beyond. (since I would like to travel and bum around with my wife after I retire) I am still going to cross seatbelts, make PA's from the front, help customers, be a leader and the face of the company. I am proud to work here and I believe in the culture of the company... I want to bring humanity to air travel. I remember when there was humanity in air travel... I tried to do my level best when I was at the regionals to make every flight a great one of the passengers. It is wonderful to be at a airline where the culture supports this. I am proud to be in the trenches here.

I have been at both union (ALPA) an non-union carriers. I was treated better at a non-union carrier. At my non-union carrier I was treated like a professional - and when I had a grievance, it was handled professionally by my boss. When I screwed something up, they handled it with care and grace. When I needed time off, I got the time off to take care of my family problems. When I was being accused of untrue things (FA's gossiping to a client, trying to get me kicked out of a aircraft program) - my boss brought me into his office and said: "We can hire a FA out of a lineup at Starbucks, you have spent over ten years of hard work and sacrifice getting into your seat, we have your back." (and they did)

At my two ALPA carriers not so much... if I had a problem, I was told to grieve it. (then the committee sold the grievences for pennies on the dollar back to the company) When I had problems with management, ALPA didn't protect me. And at another carrier, it was my former ALPA rep, turned manager, that gave me a basically quasi-illegal 'warning' letter to sign from the company because the overwork and... what's that french word... Fat-i-gue was causing me to get sick every couple of months. Oh yeah, after ALPA national got all the props for negotiating a 'industry leading' contract for us... and their writeup in their magazine... the MEC started in with the givebacks.

So, am I a fan... not just no, but H-E-Double Hockey Sticks NO.

The problem, now... again... no vote for me, so I don't even get a say in my own future. But, if I did have a vote... the company is pushing me in to the Yes column with all of the propaganda. Because I know, as bad as it was... it was not all of the GLOOM and DOOM I'm being told.

I have to say that the campaign has failed. It took a guy like me and pushed him from the ambiguity column... right into the yes column. If I'm around for a base visit, and not running for a flight home, I will mention it. And tell my boss and my bosses boss... ad infinitum that hopefully they didn't follow bad advice from a bad playbook.

Of course not.........they'd go bankrupt. But it's highly likely to be a staggering fine. Once the the damages phase is done, ALPA must put up that amount BEFORE any appeal, so again to ALPA members (current and stupidly soon to be), I say, "brace, brace, brace".

You think ALPA is going to get out of this without a hefty dues increase or serious assessment to the membership ?

If you think ALPA's going to skate, then the message there is they're free to do it again (although I admit I don't which group of their poor saps would be next to be sold down the river), but I think you're in denial.

If the judge convinces them to settle out of court, I think it will be much smaller then you think. Regardless, we all just have to wait and see. If ALPA goes for an assessment or dues increase, it will be the death of them IMO.

You think the plaintiffs will go for that ?

If say, just 2000 of the 2700 TWA pilots take a piddly $10,000 each (a joke), that's $20 million (don't know what the lawyers would get on top of that).

Ten grand a pop for ALPA selling them down the river, hook, line and sinker ain't gonna happen, IMHO. It would be a slap in the face. If a sliding scale of where each pilot was harmed was developed with most being junior and totally hosed, you could easily quadruple that to $100 million. :eek:

ALPA got that much insurance ?

Probably bankrupt the insurer. No, I can't see how ALPA's not going to get out of this without their pants pulled down and if their pants are down, they're going to want yours to stay warm.

Face it..........as a DAL pilot, you could be in a MAJOR world of hurt. I'd start saving big-time now, if I were you. :(

ALPA won't get any assessment from me. PERIOD.

And ALPA will worm their way out. Just wait and see.

Well, good luck my friend......I think you're dreaming though.

You know, when you cling to a ship like this, you accept where it sails. Read those court documents again and open your eyes to this ships direction and the disposition of its senior crew. It's not the first time national has sold out a specific pilot group and thus the other groups that inevitably have to foot the bill (or man the oars).

I suppose until your destiny is revealed, keep yours eyes forward, row on command with all your might and pray the land visable in the distance isn't filled with jagged rocks.

BTW, if the senior crew demands more of your share of their plunder, don't make waves or you'll walk the plank and be damned to Davy Jones' locker for eternity.

So, when is the election and when will we know the results?

The voting window is going on now and closes Aug 16th. We'll find out that day what the result it.

It's sad that despite what's going on with ALPA and TWA, plus the USAIR thing, that many of us here at JetBlue, me included, would feel more secure with a CBA via ALPA (again, the only currently available avenue) than trust what our company tells us about their intentions and our security. That says a lot about our current 'process'.

There's always one joker! :eek:

I would have gone with Neal Anblome

B6 pilots would be better off non-union than with ALPA. ALPA could no more protect B6 pilots in case of buyout/merger/acquisition than the Taliban deciding to convert to Christianity. Better off non-affiliated and get automatic, iron-clad labor protective provisions in case of merger/buyout than trust ALPA to do anything for them.

So given the opportunity you'd drop your CBA and go it alone?

/notsureifyoureserious:rolleyes:

Impressive summary.

It's very simple. Do you want a contract or do you wish to continue working under company-imposed work rules that it can change any time it desires?

At post-1983 Continental, Don Breeding (VP of Flt. Ops.) instituted a concept (sham) that he called "participatory management." He told his Pilot Operations Group (a.k.a. The Student Council), "We're going to write what we can live with and then live with what we write." Out came the Pilot Employment Policy and the Pilot Scheduling Policy.

Then he proceed to violate it every time it fit the company's purposes, but enforce it against the pilots when he desired.

When you hear management use terms like "working with you directly" and "flexibility," this is what they have in mind.

That's what I've already thought about the whole "maintain flexibility" regarding our work rules and related documents. To me that says, "We need the ability to stick it to ya if times get tough."

Don't Join!
 

B6 isn't affiliated yet, so no. If I had a CBA---that's one thing, but if the choice was join ALPA (with their horrible record on mergers/buyouts/SLIs) or stay independent, I'd stay independent. The RLA protects non-affiliated carriers, but not ALPA carriers whose 'union' decides to sell them out for what they perceive is the greater common good.

If my "non-affiliated" you mean non-union, yes, the RLA does indeed have some provisions that apply. Unfortunately, to take advantage of them, you'd better have some money to hire a good lawyer.

In the non-union environment at CAL post-1985 though the inception of the IACP in 1993, the company instituted "pilot employment representatives" in each base. Basically, these were management pilots who masqueraded as pilot advocates and helped pilots prepare their "grievances" as part of the "problem-solving procedure" prescribed in the management-written Pilot Employment Policy. Because the RLA mandated some kind of grievance procedure, even at non-union carriers, this was the company's response. It was stacked against the pilot grievant.

The pilot would visit his "pilot employment representative," who would help him format the grievance. It would then go to the chief pilot, and was appealable through the director of flight operations to a three-man board that would contain an arbitrator. However, there was a trick.

One member of that three-person board was from management. The second was a representative of the Pilot Operations Group, a.k.a., the "Student Council." If those two split, an arbitrator was called in. However, often the Ops Group representative voted with management, and thus the company contained the grievance. Other times, the company would let the grievance actually go through, and from time-to-time, the pilot would "win" one against the company. Thus, the illusion was preserved.

Make no mistake: The company never let a potentially expensive grievance get to an arbitrator. Overturn a suspension or firing? Yes, it happened from time to time. Cost the company money? Never!

Now, if you're talking about "non-affiliated" as not being affiliated with ALPA or some other national union, that's a different matter. But as I understand it, Jet Blue's pilots turned down a bid to certify an in-house union a couple of years ago.

JetBlue just say no
 

Certainly the DAL and other ALPO (sic) members should be concerned about the possibility of an assessment, despite assurances to the contrary, as evidenced by Moak's need to address it.

More important to the JetBlue pilots, why would you want ALPO to represent you in a merger? The jury has spoken and ALPO was found guilty of failing to provide representation to the TWA pilots. If the Blues expect better treatment for their dues I suggest they ask for help from Santa or the Easter Bunny. They have better records than Moak's boys.

Because I don't want whoever happens to be on the ELT at the time of a transaction representing me while they're trying to get themselves a sweet deal.