Help From Unions on Student Loan Legislation
 

According to a Constitutional Lawyer, who argued his points before congress in 1975, it looks like banks may be violating 14th Amendment right of Equal Protection, by having made our student loans non-dischargable in bankruptcy. Well, since airline management has used their bankruptcy protection to break their promises, I think it's time for our unions to help us out. Maybe they can help us consolidate to over-turn this relatively young, and incredibly inept tool used to turn students (many of them pilots) in the USA into debt-slaves.

When many of us took out our loans, the airline were doing well. Being a pilot was always a promising career. No so any more. Not with everything that's happened in the new millennium. If unions are having such a hard time effecting pay raises, perhaps they can help us in other ways.

Here's a link to that article on the unconstitutional reality of student loan debt slavery.

Moe Tkacik: Student Debt

+1. Although senators have tried to raise this point, it continues to be a mute point to congress.

Good point. I think, however, the political landscape could be rapidly changing. it's not a secret anymore that the student loan debt bubble is not only helping kill our economy now, but it threatens to be the next trillion dollar bail-out. And it'll all be to the banks that get bailed again if we don't do something about it first.

Yes, there are a multitude of fixes to a complex problem like education and student loans...But what can we as consumers do?

Maybe we stop spending money at over priced institutions, stop enrolling in majors that have atrocious return on investment, practice a little financial self control and live like a college student not a Kardashian while in college?

A few anecdotes come to mind;

First, the guy who complained how outrageous learning to fly was (at a rather cheap mom and pop flight school by the way), but still *had* to have the crotch rocket bike, nice car, etc...Priorities??

My sister who was warned NOT to get a four year psych degree unless she was ready to get a Masters/Doctorate or knew how she was going to use it....Now she is graduated, can't find a job, mad at the world, and has a bunch of student loan debt.

My best friend who has been attempting a bachelor degree in art for 10 years with NO end in sight, pretty much living off loan money. He's ****ed off at the world and the educational system for bringing him down.

My dad (and others) who proclaim their hatred of Wal Mart for destroying businesses and jobs, but still shop pretty much exclusively at Wal Mart.

Finally, any call in episode of Suzy Ormann.

I read this post while deadheading to my next flight. I am thankful I had 24 hours off before operating the flight because my blood pressure shot through the roof and I would have been unfit for duty! There are people who die trying to get to this country (legal and illegally) for its opportunities and you refer to them as slavery! Could you be anymore spoiled?

First, student loans can be discharged but you have to prove that paying the debt will impose undue hardship to you and/or your dependents. This is not easily done because when it comes to student loans, they are several different payment options to help you pay them back. Also, student loans can be put into forbearance and deferment. And in 2007, they started the Student Loan Forgiveness program (don't get me started on that).

So you can't afford $25/month? $100/month? I had student loans and at one time in my life I used one of the above payment options to help me through a bad financial time. I am speaking from having been there.

Second, think twice before you jump to conclusions and file bankruptcy, Ch7 or Ch13. Thankfully, it isn't as easy to file anymore. You ruin your credit for up to ten years which could impact buying a home, renting an apartment etc.etc. It could take up to five years to complete the bankruptcy process. You may lose your car and other possessions. Lastly, many companies do background checks and a recent bankruptcy filing is a huge red flag.

You are owed nothing. Stop this entitlement mentality. You are the type of person that is bringing this country to its knees.

I suggest Dave Ramsey Homepage - daveramsey.com or some other financial counselor before you go filing.

^^^This^^^

Over, and over, and over.

Yes. All funny points. Student consumers need to be responsible as well. :)

But I restate the point. "When many of us took out our loans, the airline were doing well. Being a pilot was always a promising career. Not so any more. Not with everything that's happened in the new millennium."

Further. The banking lobby has found fit, once again, to trample constitutional rights. This is a naked example of rent-seeing extractionism.

Let's not point out the exceptions here. Let's stick to the rule and the facts. Those cases pointed out above, are extreme. I think 90% of us handled ourselves accordingly. If we can create justice for the 90% then I call that an "A".

Could you be any more out of touch? Those people who would "die" to get into this country are mostly Mexicans or Haitians who, if they don't, will probably get killed in the drug wars back home. I can't think of ANY people from France, England, Germany, Canada, or any myriad of other Western civilized countries that are "risking death" to get to the USA. Cut the 1960's Cuban floatilla rhetoric and come to terms with the fact that this country ain't what it used to be. Sober yourself. Poverty in the USA is at a higher level than it's been since 1964.

I have SO MUCH education to dish to you my friend. First. All this....

....only applies to The good ol' days when people actually DID risk their lives to get into the USA who weren't threatened with certain death unless they did. Since the passage of the laws privatizing student loans in the 1990's the game has changed.

Moe Tkacik: Student Debt

Noted. Thank you.

We are owed "nothing"?? Hello? We are owed our Constitutional rights! You seem to think that human beings with beating hearts (Not some contrived notion that somehow corporations are people) are costing America its doom. Turn around and look at the sense of entitlement that actually IS. Corporate entitlement. That which VASTLY outweighs social service programs. In 2009 corporate welfare cost American Tax Payers $92 billion. That same years, social welfare, $52. Here's that link.

Welfare Statistics: Government Spends More on Corporate Welfare Than..

The problem with corporate welfare is so bad that even the conservatively biased Forbes Magazine ran an article titled,

Where to Cut the Federal Budget? Start by Killing Corporate Welfare - Forbes

So if you feel like tooting the horn of "You are owed nothing", toot it in the right direction, or forever be considered a friend to the Rent Seeking.

Rent-seeking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I suggest you step out of the 80's and get with the times. In order to redistribute the wealth of the majority into the hands of the minority, corporations have made what was once illegal, legal.

This thread is about helping hard working pilots, not protecting people who claim to be hard working and in the process extract the nations wealth into ever deepening pockets.

Just an admonishment at this point. The rules of this forum prohibit "political posts" that said, I responded to a post with political implications. I suggest we move away from the political side of this discussion while no party has yet crossed that line. CoOl? cOoL. :)

I'm not taking the counter point for the sake of being a d*ck, but to my view point, the economic crash of 2008 really showed a lot of financial "bad behavior" at many levels and for large groups.

I wish I had the stats in front of me-obviously much better than my anecdotes-but didn't the majority of Americans have a negative savings rate? Just one example.

The housing boom and crash, yet another example. And I believe Suzy Ormann titled a book about living "Young, Fabulous, and Broke." I further remember watching a show something like the 'Ten People Who Caused the Econonmic Meltdown'...and the 10th face was "You," that is, the American public.

Hey, I see what you are saying-schools and loans are out of whack. Schools make larger than life promises, and promote worthless degrees...Aviation pay, generally speaking is out of whack, too.

My hope is that, if we are calling on government intervention, we first turn inward to try to make capitalism work a little... Stop patronizing businesses, institutions, schools, and college majors that don't make financial sense. Be more thrifty.

P.S. Believe me, Suzy Ormann is not my oracle of financial knowledge, but listening to the call ins to her show is usually pretty mind blowing. Especially the folks with good incomes that are waaaay in debt! :eek:

Good post!

Also just playing Devil's advocate here.

Okay so, for those who DID handle their finances poorly, this suddenly make "Unconstitutional" okay? I mean, we just had an insident in Connecticut that prooved that some people, like credit, can't handle guns either, but the Constitution is protecting Americans from having their rights stripped of them.

There needs to be some accountability with these schools and lenders. Exactly who is telling the students "how the industry really is"? Everyone loves to say (in hindsight): "do you research!", but exactly how? There is no real mechanism for this. Recruiters tell students and parents what they want to hear, they don't always outright "lie", but they leave out some of the information and are not realistic. The industry wants to keep their flow of pilots coming, pilots at career fairs and during industry presentations are tippie-toeing for fear of making their employers mad, as well as when they get furloughed or finally move on, because you never know when you're going to have to right back to working for that crappy airline due to the instability of the industry. This makes the "do your research" line one of the most jacka$$ things we can say to anyone. It's just not realistic that people in that group can make the best decisions, and if they mess up, it's with them for sometimes the rest of their life! All because someone lied to them and there was a vacuum of real information?

There needs to be some accountability. I bet when the lenders start losing money they get wise REAL quick and stop giving out the money like candy. Then we can ensure that the institutions meet certain standards, performance targets, and so on. Heck, if the student declares bankruptcy, then go after the school! Why did they let someone of that caliber in the school in the first place? Lets build some damn accountability into the system. The goal isn't to allow any and everyone to discharge their loans, it's to somehow put a stop to the lack of accountability that schools and recruiters have. If it's ok for the airlines to go bankrupt and discharge, it should be ok for students too.

^^^This^^^

Over, and over, and over.

We get it, you think you should get a clean slate rather than own up to the obligations you made.

There are already rumblings about defaults on the 1 TRILLION dollars in outstanding student loan debt as being the next 'housing bubble'-type financial crisis. The political will to make it easier to discharge these debts, thus leaving the rest of America holding YOUR bag, is non-existant.

As written above, there needs to be some accountability. If you signed on the dotted line and reaped the benefits of an education provided by a student loan, you're the one who is accountable.

Since when is it a constitutional right to run up a huge student loan and then dump it off on others?

I paid cash for all my education and training. I'd love to pay for yours as well, it's the least I can do.

How old are you? This career has been shaky at best since the late 80s/early 90s. What part of this industry gave you the warm and comfy that you could easily handle all education debts accrued?

I think he might be one of those who think it is a constitutional right to have a car, own a home, and a guaranteed job regardless of who pays for it. :rolleyes:

I think it's hyaterical how some people think I'm the one with student loan debt. LoL!

This is about my, and other people's Constitutional rights. Do you think the attorney who argued before Congress that this is a violation of the rights afforded Americans was in student loan debt?

Please point out where it says in the Constitution that if you can't pay back your student loans that they should be forgiven?

You're so far out in left field you should be selling hot dogs and foam fingers.

Have you actually read the Constitution? Exactly where in there is paying your obligations a violation of anything?

Perhaps you should ask that same question to every airline management team which has filed for bankruptcy over the last 30 years? They have been allowed to breach contracts in their race to the bottom, and in so doing, rip-off you, and me. I mean, that is what you're arguing for....right? If they as students should be held accountable for their decisions and debts, shouldn't airline management too?

It really makes me wonder which side some of you supposed "pilots" are really on?

But for your information, the section of the XIV Amendment in questions follows;

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

U.S. Senate: Reference Home > Constitution of the United States

That said, it has been accordingly upheld, "No state shall deny to any person within its juristiction the equal protection of the laws."

Equal Protection Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Said the pilots to the airline management team.

You may not like it (I sure don't), but a company legally filing bankruptcy and liquidating pensions is legal. Don't like it? Run for office and change it. Write your reps and demand change.

Now pay your loans off, my tax dollars shouldn't because you can't hold up your end of the bargain, which you signed on the dotted line for.

What does any airline mgmt team have to do with whatever bank you entered into a legal obligation with for your student loans? Personal responsibility, try it some time.

Now pay your pilot contract off, my income dollars shouldn't because you can't hold up your end of the bargain, which you signed on the dotted line for.

To clarify for those who might need it. Management teams dismiss their financial obligations to the employees of their company after the poor decisions leading to their messes, and students (those who may have made informed or uninformed decisions) are not afforded Equal Protection?

There is a certain group of people in the USA, I wont mention them by name, who will continue arguing despite the facts they just asked for, when presented, weighting completely against them.

Management at company X and their agreement with their employees is a private enterprise.

Your student loans are backed (and often times funded) by the gov't, which means if you try to discharge them in BK, the taxpayers are left holding the bag.

Contrary to popular belief, the world doesn't owe you anything and you're responsible for your descisions. Lots of us on here sucked it up and paid our debts off, just like we agreed to. You're looking for sympathy in the wrong place, maybe try an Occupy protest.

Your logic is truly dizzying, if you'd like to get back on topic and explain what help you expect labor unions to provide in terms of "help", it would be more productive for the thread.

Out of curiosity, what union do you belong to and what can you post the resolutions that you've brought so far?

According to this,

S 1450 - Air Transportation Safety and System Stabilization Act - Key Vote - Project Vote Smart

...the airlines are inexorably bound to tax payers, whether they are "regulated" or not.

Was this an "unforeseen event" which lead to $5 billion in federal grants, $10 billion in loans and creation of the TSA, a $1.2 billion dollar a year endeavor? Sometimes the support of the government is a private or civil mater. Well, I'm pretty certain the destruction of this occupation, as outlined by Cap't Chesley Sullenberger wasn't exactly anticipated either. And this isn't a request for special treatment. It's a demand, once made, for Equal Treatment under the Constitution.

HSLD - In comparing this to the dichotomy of airlines making poor, or even not so poor decisions, and being able to escape their obligations through bankruptcy, and the same right not afforded to students, I'm simply bringing forward a universal example closest to all of our lives in the interest of the readers and participants being able to identify with the argument.

But yes, I'll move away from that analogy to a more obscure one if the Co-Founder should so like. But, if it's just to keep "management" away from being on the defensive, which is most likely not your intent, I'd have to wonder, who runs this site?? I mean. I noticed it's perfectly fine for the user "Jungle" to attack unions,

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/un...-up-crazy.html

but the moment anything less than friendly is said about management, it's grounds to "stop talking about it"?

To respect your curiosity, I'm using this thread as part of my preliminary "argumentation process" and "landscape" test.

I'll answer the question of if I'm union or not, or which union I'm with, once Grumble and others have to answer the same question. I appreciate your curiosity on it though.

SC you sound ridiculous you know that? Your argument holds no water. Your argument is, airlines filed for bankruptcy; therefore, I should be able to file for bankruptcy.

You assume that filing for bankruptcy means you walk away from your responsibilities. This is not the case.

Do you think all of those airlines that filed for bankruptcy had zero debt after filing bankruptcy? No, their debt was reorganized and renegotiated. Their contracts were renegotiated. Which is the same thing that is going to happen to you if you go to bankruptcy court. Why do you think that companies like DAL and UAL still have debt on their books? (they each owe roughly $12 billion in long-term debt)

Just because one lawyer argued that it wasn't constitutional, back in 1975, doesn't mean that it is.

Student loans can be discharged. I repeat, STUDENT LOANS CAN BE DISCHARGED! So the argument of equal protection is not sound.

Please answer these questions ...

Do you have cable or satellite TV?
Do you have a smartphone/data plan?
Do you have a flat screen tv?
Do you have an Xbox or other gaming device?
Do you have more than one car?
Are you driving a new or newer car?
Do you have a car payment? Motorcyle, 4-wheeler or similar toy payment?
Do you go out partying, drinking/smoking?
Do you regularly go to the movies, shopping, spending money?
Always have to have new clothes?
Do you spend your days off working having fun rather than working a second or third job?

If so, then you are clearly able to repay your debt.

It makes me sick that people like you are trying to ruin what makes this country great. I grew up in humble beginnings where my father made just over $20k/year. We did all sorts of things to get by. But I knew that getting good grades in school would be the way out. I received student loans back in the mid-late 90's and I completed my obligations; although it took me a bit longer than I wanted it to.

If you spent your time trying to figure out a way to increase your compensation rather than wasting it on ways of avoiding your obligations, we wouldn't be reading your ridiculous posts.

Again, stop the entitlement and wealth redistribution mentality.

I suggest you contact Dave Ramsey Homepage - daveramsey.com or some other financial counselor.

My argument holds no water?? It holds the only water it has to; "it's unconstitutional".

I don't see anything but emotions over-flowing in this post. You have made no citations, no legal argument and brought no new material to light.

What about the damage done to one's credit, as you warned earlier? Up to 10 years? That seems quite the punishment. This probable restoration of Constitutional rights does not have the person filing for bankruptcy walking away Scott-free as you keep repeating.

I'm not saying that the rights afforded corporations and everybody else to escape debt, and what happens in the process is alright. No one is. But at least they've had their rights intact.

The bottom line is the US Constitution affords the same rights to EVERYONE under every law. What makes their debt so different than everybody else's debt? What makes students so much different than a retail consumer, or a venture capitalist? The answer: Nothing does. Under the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution, as US citizens, students are entitled to the same rights everyone else has, even if they are filing for something as ugly as bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is a Protection, and they are entitled to all the benefits under it as a Right. That is my opinion and the opinion of other practitioners of Constitutional Law.

KC10 FATboy - Apparently I'm not as ridiculous as you think. 48 other House Representatives found to co-found a Bill allowing discharge of student loan debt in 2011.

Private Student Loan Bankruptcy Fairness Act of 2011 (H.R. 2028) - GovTrack.us

See. These are the kinds of educated arguments I'm looking for. Most of what I'm getting is just a bunch of radicalized anger and emotion.

It's so easy to make it sound as if we're advocating taking out tens of thousands of dollars worth of loans, and then blow them off on a whim, isn't it?

Let me ask a different question: Do you think there is ANY situation EVER where someone should be able to declare bankruptcy and either have loans discharged or restructured/partially forgiven/whatever it takes? Should we just send them to jail? Shoot them? What?

The double standard is downright laughable. And yes, we realize that businesses do not discharge all debts, we've been alive just barely long enough to figure this out I guess. And no, you can not discharge all of your student loans if it were to ever come to that, you can only discharge private loans. Federally backed loans are a different matter, that's where the "equal protection" thing comes in.

The whole idea is trying to build some accountability into the system. I realize this may be a difficult concept with airlines able to sell you out on a whim when it looks like they have to force concessions to keep operating and losing money, but there needs to be some accountability for lying, cheating, trying to get students to take out loans when they don't understand the ramifications. These guys are what, like 18? They don't have the choice to do this again if it goes bad, and if they don't have the information, should this be something that ruins their entire life? These are kids turned loose in a world where people much older are trying to take advantage of them. Where's the heart? No, it shouldn't be as easy as "oh, I'm out of money, I need to discharge my loans". No kidding, and if at all possible, IF someone has to declare bankruptcy, they should have to pay back as much as is possible in their circumstance, and bankruptcy should not be granted to all, just like scholarships shouldn't be granted to everyone Murkowskis deny involvement in getting family member scholarship | State News | ADN.com Just because you are a high performer doesn't mean you should get free money, there are a lot of high performers out there, and undoubtedly some that need it more than that governor's daughter.

If you don't agree that there should be reasonable recourse, then I hope your airline goes out of business and you lose your job. At the least I hope you take a huge paycut so your "dollars" can go to helping the business survive. Multiple bankruptcy is bad and businesses need to be accountable too, but there does need to be something out there to give a reasonable second chance IF certain criteria are met, and it shouldn't be for each and every case. Maybe at least I can appeal to your admiration of business, and if just a few students (that actually needed it) were able to discharge these debts, I bet accountability for lenders and schools would come REAL fast, as they wouldn't want to lose the money, even if it's the fed, federally backed, private, etc.

Again, good thoughts JamesNoBreaks.

Okay so we've debated the pros, cons, moral and ethical implications of discharging debt. We've debated the Constitutional applicability of the XIV Amendment ad nauseum. You've all been heard. Respectfully and even not so respectfully, I've heard ya.

I've sent a message to my union regarding this concept. I've included this thread as reading material in addition to all these links and more. I got what I wanted: Arguments. As I'd stated at the top of this thread, as this last decade has yielded one wage and benefit concession after another, perhaps there are other ways to help the community which has found itself in "extreme financial difficulty". - Chesley Sullenberger before Congress

I made proposals on how to integrate the union effort into a grass roots movement capturing those who might not want to scream their financial situation to the world. Finally, I've included conceptual plans on how to hopefully galvanize a presence before Congress, to my Union. I'm still open to hearing more about Union integration with the initiative. But as for the ugliness of any entity's bankruptcy or alleged deprivation of Constitutional rights, lets move on. :)

This is the last thing I want my union to get distracted with. There are much more pressing issues than wasting the dues collected by the masses to help protect the minority ignorant who can't manage their finances and who wrongly claim their constitutional rights have been violated.

My parting words for this thread ... A corporation can not have its debt discharged; whereas, an individual like yourself can. Constitutional?

What union does business this way?

What people need to do is their homework. Figure out how much you need to borrow, what your intrest rate will be, and you can easily figure out the payments roughly. You can then look at what the pay is as a CFI, Regional pilot, etc. With proper budgeting you should be able to know if you can pay things off or not. If you can't pay it off then don't get the loan or live with mom and dad until you can pay it off.

Sure crap happens and a lot of times you can renegoiate with your lender. I think you should be able to change your intrest rate and have some of the intrest payments forgiven. If circumstances warrant(layoff, family hardship, etc.)

I have flown with more than one pilot who had parents tell them to just put their flight training multiple CC's(when they we're handing them out like candy) and declare bankruptcy because a lot of the times a bank will just write it off. That is the problem of this entire country. People we're roaring drunk on credit and then wanted to be bailed out when they couldn't foot the bill. Not a way society should be, IMO.

And if you had a good idea how much you'd earn and how the industry really works prior to getting that loan, your post would make sense.

And if "the entire problem with this country" was really what you just said, we'd have a majority of people that had shed their flight training loans in bankruptcy, and you know that is not true. Hyperbole. I haven't flown with any pilots that have have done what you claim (yet), making it difficult to pin it as "the entire problem with this country".

Easy, I don't belong to any union yet. Grew up in a union family. I'm still active mil.

Your turn, go!


We don't need any "material" or citations. You already have them. You know that contract you signed when you took out your student loans? That's all the legal argument anyone here needs. And as has been mentioned, numerous times, you are free to file BK (just like any company you're citing) and discharge your debt, just like them. Just like a company, there are somethings you may still be saddled with depending on what the court decides. Most likely it'll be your student loans.

Beat ya to it.