Treatment after declining membership
 

I'm curious if anyone here who works for an ALPA airline has chosen to decline union membership (but still pay dues). Were you treated differently? Denied jumpseats, harassed, etc?

How do you pay dues and deny membership? Is that possible?

Yes. You don't have to be a member of the union, however, they still have a legal obligation to represent you, so you're required to pay agency fees regardless of your membership status.

A person can decline to join the union...however, since they are benefitting from the pay, work rules and protections of the union contract, they are required to pay a "contract maintenance fee" that is equivalent to the dues a member pays.

At my carrier they will be treated with indifference and exclusion. Their name will be posted in the crewroom for all to see how they are selfish SOBs who want the benefit without the responsibility. They will be treated appropriately like another group.

Not so fast, there is NO responsibility for ALPA to represent or provide legal resources to a non-member in a disciplinary hearing. The same is true with ALPA aeromedical resources, lose your medical, go find your own doctors to deal with the FAA. There are other ALPA membership benefits that non-members do not receive

You are correct that ALPA contracts are "closed shop" meaning that the contractual language applies to all in that category and class. Because ALPA negotiates the pilot contract for the category and class, non-members are covered by and benefit from those efforts (pay rates, work rules, retirements, etc.). Non-members are billed a "contract maintenance" fee which is at a different rate than membership dues.

Professionally, there's no difference in treatment when operating the aircraft safely but conversation is limited only to operational items. Interpersonally, it appears to be a very lonely work existence for non-members.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/un...non-grata.html


Non-members are not entitled to ancillary benefits afforded by union membership, but they ARE entitled to fair representation under the CBA. The bargaining unit has a duty of fair representation to all members of the class or craft.










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Ah. I guess I had that wrong. I didn't realize one could refuse representation.

That's not what "closed shop" means. Closed shop means all employees (of the class or craft) have to be union members. It is certainly a goal in ALPA CBAs, but it is not universal.






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No, you had it correct.

If the union will represent a member in a disciplinary process, it has a duty to provide the same level of representation to a non-member.

Duty of Fair Representation






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There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

I meant to say agency shop, oops.

I'm not sure you understand agency shop, either.

You meant to say:


That's not agency shop, either. It's the Duty of Fair Representation that ANY Bargaining Agent has for EVERY member of the Class or Craft that agent represents. It applies to all unions under the National Labor Relations Act AND the Railway Labor Act.


What you said after that comes closer to describing agency shop:

In a closed shop, every person in the class or craft must be a member of the union.

In an agency shop, every person in the class or craft must be a member of the union, OR pay an agency fee, a fee to cover the costs of collective bargaining.

Whether the employer is a closed shop, an agency shop, or an open shop, the union (the Bargaining Agent) has an obligation to fairly represent each and every person in the class or craft (whether paying dues, paying an agency fee, or paying nothing) - the Duty of Fair Representation.






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I think you might be reading it wrong. I'm talking about forgoing all representation by the union (except collective bargaining).

But back to the question: Has anyone paid agency fees, etc, at their airline but not been a member of the union? What happened?

Agency shop describes ALPA on my property. ALPA bargains (exclusive rights) for the craft/class and you're either a member, OR a non-member. Members pay membership dues. Non-members pay a "contract maintenance" fee (agency fee) that cover the costs of bargaining. I'm pretty sure we're saying the same thing here.

DFR is one thing, extending membership benefits is another.

Just to make sure we're crystal clear ...


Representing the employee in case of discipline, or in a grievance, falls under DFR. Non-members get the same representation as members.


Discount life insurance, medical advice from staff physicians, loss of license insurance, and other perks not covered by the CBA are ancillary benefits. Non-members don't get 'em.


(In other words, what you stated in your first post ("there is NO responsibility for ALPA to represent or provide legal resources to a non-member in a disciplinary hearing") was NOT correct.)






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RV5M, are you considering bailing out of ALPA? You just got here man.

I can't say I've always been happy with ALPA, but even if I were so ****ed at them to the point of rage, I would still pay my dues. Here is why.

Putting all the benefits aside for a moment, and even representation, it is not worth it to be that lone-wolf. Guys will treat you differently, not all of them, but a lot of them. I just think it's the wrong way to deal with frustration. There are plenty of productive roles you can take within the organization to effect positive change.

If you're the kind of person that wants to proceed on your principles vs. what is pragmatic then go for it, but first go read Ben Franklin's autobiography. LOL! I'm serious! He's got a cool story about refusing to pay beer dues at a print shop he worked at as a young man because he didn't drink. In the end, he paid them, and willingly.

I read the passage. Immediately after BF decides to pay he changes the whole system. Anyway, a lot of that book is written as satire so I'm always a little wary of taking its advice lest I later learn it was meant to be a joke.

Economics aside, the intimidation/poor treatment the union uses to keep people in line is, in itself, a red flag for me. If airline unions are the best choice, why is the issue not open to discussion? Instead, dissenters are suppressed while the union entrenches itself with laws and red tape. How quickly would ALPA fall apart in Right to Work states without the Railway Labor Act?

It's all incredibly complex. I'm not out to get the union and was just looking for examples of poor treatment. Surprisingly little is written about the system, so getting involved would be a good way to understand it better.

In the case of an individual pilot who chooses not to be a member, I don't think the poor treatment is sanctioned or encouraged by the union leadership - in fact I'm pretty sure they would discourage it. Where it does exist it comes from the rank and file membership itself.

Personally, I would never treat anyone differently based on a decision to be a member or not. I might rationally discuss their reasons with them, but I'd never let it become personal, and would get along fine with them.

I doubt you are truly surprised that non members would be perceived in a poor light by dues paying union members. Many, myself included, would view them as benefiting off the backs of others while not contributing themselves. In any situation this breeds resentment. It is not a red flag it is the nature of man.

Poor treatment and intimidation that the union uses? Huh? Would you mind providing examples of pilot unions using intimidation "to keep people in line"?

If you're talking about union members' views, and not union leadership, you may have a point. Don't mistake how non-members are viewed by their peers vs. nonexistent social engineering programs by union management. Pilots view non-members as weak sisters that rely on someone else to do the heavy lifting, yet are happy to enjoy the benefits earned by union members efforts.


I would, screw those guys. Many union members disagree with tactics, process, and direction with the organization but still show up in the union hall to have their voices heard and be part of the process to change the direction. Non-members claim to conscientious objectors to make themselves feel better, but the reality is they're leeches.

My union began and grew as an Open Shop in a right to work state.

Any other questions?


You only have one bargaining agent -- you can't bargain your own work rules with your employer because you think you deserve it and they're a gracious employer. You can stand on the sidelines and watch, or you can pitch in and help.






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I don't disagree with you - I'm just saying I have a personal policy to keep it professional always. Interpersonal conflict in the cockpit is dangerous. I've learned that the hard way.

It would be unwise to decline....

If it's an issue for you apply to Virgin Atlantic or jet blue... No union.

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But they don't pay as well ! <sarcasm font on>

I withdrew membership from an IBT local and became a fee paying objecting non member of my bargaining unit a little over a year ago. With the security clause in the CBA that is the only choice short of quitting.

I got a big "SHUN THE NONBELIEVER" welcome from the admin offices, somewhat less of one on the line and maybe even a little bit here in the "Persona non grata" thread I started, all of which actually reaffirmed my decision to withdraw.

I had to push the issue with admin regarding my ability to access that which was required to be provided to fee paying objectors. I ended up getting a letter from the legal department advising me that I had limited access to limited sections of the website. Legal box checked; four legs good, two legs bad.

In theory, I should only be paying the direct cost of contract administration, which is slightly (very slightly) less than dues. I was assured last June that a rebate check for the difference paid in 2012 would be sent when they got around to it. Still waiting with a sarcastic look in my eyes for the $20-ish to arrive. Shun the nonbeliever.

Communication and action regarding contract administration is like a remote control car with low batteries. You can never be sure if the bad batteries are in the controller, the car or both. When you push the button you sometimes get sluggish movement for as long as the button is held down. Movement stops as soon as I let go the button and I never really get anywhere.

This has been my experience as a heretic. YMMV

You're better off paying. It's almost the same money and there are plenty of people with nothing better to do than look this up and harass you.

Why did you become a fee paying objecting non member of the bargaining unit? Thanks

Initially, just Hoffa.

I really think you should try it and after a year let us know how it worked out Marvin.

Did you find him?:rolleyes:

This one is too easy to find.

In addition, non - members can't vote on anything that is union related.

At DAL I doubt anyone would notice or care. You certainly wouldn't feel any blowback on the line. As long as your paying your share, why would it matter that you choose to not vote? The majority don't vote in elections. Union meetings with 30 pilots would be considered well attended. And even contract votes see large percentages just not bothering. Go ahead and opt-out if it makes you feel better. If you don't tell anyone, no one will know.

Same with where I worked. You're paying the contract maintenance fee, so it doesn't really matter. Unless you've crossed a picket line in your past, no one gives a hoot whether you're in, out or in bad standing.

At my first company there was this old cAPTAIN who bagged about not being a member and not having to pay agency shop as he was on property before the union. What he never bragged about was the fact he wouldn't let anyone on the plane but himself serve his drinks as everyone would spit in the cup of ice that came with the drink. Lucky for him the crew meals were self service........

If "non-members" pay the contract negotiation fee, how are they benefiting off the backs of others? You staunch union supporters make me sick! I'm a conservative and would object to having my union dues used for political contributions to liberals. I'm a damn good worker and employee every job I've ever had I work hard and have been promoted sometimes well before others that had seniority over me. I don't need a union. I have found that employers want good employees and will pay/treat their good employees fairly so as to keep them in the fold. Unions are for slugs! I worked in a union print shop as a kid and my god, breaks every 20mins 1 hour lunch and worthless employees! That company went under 3 years after I left. I'm non union and could care less if I'm treated poorly by big government union slug captains. I sleep just fine at night.

"Unions - ideas so good we intimidate you into joining"

Yeah, me too. Know what? Unions are prohibited from using union dues for political contributions. Problem solved.


And what happens when the same employer who picked you for early promotion also picks you to fly that trip that compromises your standards of safety? Winds are out of limits, or the visibility is inadequate, or maybe it's just a matter of being too tired to safely operate an airplane. The employer really, really, really wants the flight to go -- he really needs to get there -- and if you can't break the rules for him, maybe he can find another employee who wants the promotion more to do it.

That's how it used to be, back before pilots got together to collectively say no, safety is more important than promotions based on how much the boss likes us.


You're living in a fantasy world. While such employers exist, they are few and far between. And how do you suppose they determine what "fair" pay is in the first place?

A long history of collective bargaining has established fair compensation -- pay and benefits -- as well as work rules and safety standards. If you think your employer pays well because he's a nice guy, you're a fool. If he could pay you a third and keep you there, he would.

Fair compensation has been elevated to what it is today by decades of collective bargaining. Employers know what they have to pay to keep you from going elsewhere because that's the pay that we have collectively bargained. Would you be willing to work for a tenth of that pay and benefits so you can be promoted ahead of all of your peers?


You sleep fine at night in large part due to the improvements in the industry that have been gained by the sweat and blood of pilots willing to risk their own livelihoods by standing together to make things better for you and everyone else to follow. I know, you can't see that from where you currently sit, so you deserve a little slack.

You deserve a chance to do a little reading, educate yourself a little, and then have another look and reassess your situation. I recommend you begin with this book:

Flying the Line

Happy reading!

(Well, shucks, it looks like you have to be an ALPA member to get a free electronic copy of the book. Tell ya what. PM me your e-mail address, and I'll send you a copy. It comes in iPad, Kindle, Kindle Fire, Nook, Digital Page Turning, PDF, and HTML versions. OR, if you don't want to accept a benefit from a union, you can order your own paper copy from Amazon.com or eBay)




(Oh, and could you please let me know when you plan to call your Captain a "union slug" to his face? I would like to watch.)






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