Kirby At TK
08-23-2022, 02:08 PM
#1
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Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 737
Kirby At TK
Apparently this text is making the rounds, if it’s true looks like Kirby is negotiating directly with the pilots. Isn’t that negotiating 101 right out of management’s playbook?
Passed by a friend:
From a friend at a TK meeting with Kirby today: Plan is 100-160 maximum total rj 2024 and beyond. Down from 500
Den will be the biggest base going forward
Premium pay has gotten out of control at 20% of trips flown. Want that down to 2%. Too much premium makes guys never want to pick up normal open time.
50/50 chance we open a new base in Florida
ALPA doing another survey is a joke. He said “what on earth are they doing???”
He literally made fun of ALPA.
Ready to fix the contract now. Mentioned if he gave us 20% aa will offer 21% right after just to mess with us.
No way age 65 goes away under current administration as long as ALPA is opposed to it. And ALPA stance won’t change.
Passed by a friend:
From a friend at a TK meeting with Kirby today: Plan is 100-160 maximum total rj 2024 and beyond. Down from 500
Den will be the biggest base going forward
Premium pay has gotten out of control at 20% of trips flown. Want that down to 2%. Too much premium makes guys never want to pick up normal open time.
50/50 chance we open a new base in Florida
ALPA doing another survey is a joke. He said “what on earth are they doing???”
He literally made fun of ALPA.
Ready to fix the contract now. Mentioned if he gave us 20% aa will offer 21% right after just to mess with us.
No way age 65 goes away under current administration as long as ALPA is opposed to it. And ALPA stance won’t change.
08-23-2022, 02:39 PM
#4
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,803
Originally Posted by Duckdude
Those sound more like statements than negotiations to me. And I’ve been making fun of UAL ALPA lately too.
Exactly, what part of that is untrue?
- The plan to reduce the number of and mainline reliance of RJs is nothing new.
- Growth forecasts in Denver has been known for several years - even in the darkest days of pandemic.
- Is anyone surprised that management doesn't want to use premium pay as a staffing model?
- Who among us hasn't asked "ALPA, what are they doing?" Somehow it's wrong of the CEO to say it, ya gotta know all of management is thinking it and will take full advantage of the recall cycle.
- I make fun of ALPA too, I mean seriously, what an easy target.
- Age 65 doesn't involve ALPA, opposition just means they don't get a seat at the table. If Congress decides that's what's best for the country - guess what.
Kirby shows up at New Pilot Winging and New Captain ceremonies frequently, that he's at TK is hardly news.
08-23-2022, 02:57 PM
#5
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Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 432
Originally Posted by Boeing Aviator
Apparently this text is making the rounds, if it’s true looks like Kirby is negotiating directly with the pilots. Isn’t that negotiating 101 right out of management’s playbook?
Passed by a friend:
From a friend at a TK meeting with Kirby today: Plan is 100-160 maximum total rj 2024 and beyond. Down from 500
interesting numbers but that was always the plan with the new NB order. If they capped RJ scope in that range I’d happily give them the 4 grand on the -550.
Den will be the biggest base going forward
Nothing new there. Makes sense to have our biggest base be the one that gets wrecked every summer afternoon from 4-8pm while the ATC trainees struggle to manage 1/4 the traffic of ORD with 10 times the RNAV arrivals but the numbers must work somehow.
Premium pay has gotten out of control at 20% of trips flown. Want that down to 2%. Too much premium makes guys never want to pick up normal open time.
I don’t buy it, premium pay is cheaper than more pilots. The contractual language changes point to management wanting more flexibility to throw money at the problem, not less.
50/50 chance we open a new base in Florida
They’ll never be able to staff EWR if they do this 😂.
ALPA doing another survey is a joke. He said “what on earth are they doing???”
He literally made fun of ALPA.
I mean same. ALPA at UA is a joke right now.
Ready to fix the contract now. Mentioned if he gave us 20% aa will offer 21% right after just to mess with us.
Undoubtedly. Hopefully they go first. I’m happy to wait.
No way age 65 goes away under current administration as long as ALPA is opposed to it. And ALPA stance won’t change.
Passed by a friend:
From a friend at a TK meeting with Kirby today: Plan is 100-160 maximum total rj 2024 and beyond. Down from 500
interesting numbers but that was always the plan with the new NB order. If they capped RJ scope in that range I’d happily give them the 4 grand on the -550.
Den will be the biggest base going forward
Nothing new there. Makes sense to have our biggest base be the one that gets wrecked every summer afternoon from 4-8pm while the ATC trainees struggle to manage 1/4 the traffic of ORD with 10 times the RNAV arrivals but the numbers must work somehow.
Premium pay has gotten out of control at 20% of trips flown. Want that down to 2%. Too much premium makes guys never want to pick up normal open time.
I don’t buy it, premium pay is cheaper than more pilots. The contractual language changes point to management wanting more flexibility to throw money at the problem, not less.
50/50 chance we open a new base in Florida
They’ll never be able to staff EWR if they do this 😂.
ALPA doing another survey is a joke. He said “what on earth are they doing???”
He literally made fun of ALPA.
I mean same. ALPA at UA is a joke right now.
Ready to fix the contract now. Mentioned if he gave us 20% aa will offer 21% right after just to mess with us.
Undoubtedly. Hopefully they go first. I’m happy to wait.
No way age 65 goes away under current administration as long as ALPA is opposed to it. And ALPA stance won’t change.
08-23-2022, 06:46 PM
#7
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Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,256
Originally Posted by Duckdude
And I’ve been making fun of UAL ALPA lately too.
Kirby vs UA ALPA is like Brady vs a 10-year old Pop Warner quarterback. It's like Conor McGregor vs Urkel. UA ALPA has simply proven itself to be hopelessly outclassed and outmatched by UA management. It'd be pure schadenfreude if it didn't affect the entire profession.
08-24-2022, 02:48 AM
#8
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Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 737
From another pilot:
Scott addressed my class (virtually) last week. I wouldn't say he was 'negotiating' anything. He made most of the same statements listed above, but they were all in answer to questions from pilots.
With respect to the RJs, this came up with several members of management, and all emphasized the same two points: RJs no longer work because of RJ pilots are getting paid more than us to fly 50 seaters that can't even carry 50 people, and even with the enhanced pay, the pilot shortage is biting them hard. It was also made clear that some cities will see reductions in service (duh). He wants pilots in the RJs to come here, and not go to any other carrier.
Florida base: his exact words were "I'm not as opposed to it as I used to be, but I still don't see it." The network exec took it a step further, and said that as long as AMR has a big hub in Miami and DL continues to flood Florida from ATL, a Florida base makes zero sense. Scott also made another point about our hubs: the 3 most profitable hubs in the world are DFW, ATL, and CLT, and the reason they make so much money is that the hometown airline in each controls no less than 85% of the market share. We don't have more than 50% in any of our hubs (not including Guam). Until we can create that kind of super-hub, we can't really consider a new base.
The comment about AMR and DL besting our pay immediately was made, but that isn't the company's primary concern, because UAL would do the same thing.
One person asked him what he sees as a potential hiccup for all of the new planes coming, and he was pretty emphatic: a lack of LCAs and instructors. That got brought up several times just by Kirby and then again by others. It's clearly a major, major issue, and it might be the one reason for some optimism in all of this. Airplanes that can't be staffed are a huge liability.
His comments about the union...I'd never seen him try so hard to watch his words. He was a combination of disheartened, embarrassed and frustrated. It's clear that he wants this done, but he was also definitely caught off guard by the response of the pilot group. Does that make any difference in the end? I don't know, but I hope so.
He also addressed a question about the Spirit/Jetblue merger with a degree of glee that one would normally see on Christmas morning. His exact words: "I'm ecstatic! I think it's going to be a huge disaster that we can--and will--take full advantage of."
The premium pay issue didn't come up, but I can certainly understand the company wanting to get the level of premium pay down to a fraction of what it is, but I think it's going to take a while for that to happen.
The issue of a wide-body order was also addressed. He called it a "make or break deal for Boeing." Take that as you will, but it's clearly going to be a sizeable order whenever it is announced. Along this line, he talked about how well we are doing in some markets, and others being weaker than they had hoped. Several managers emphasized a number of different growth spots around the globe, and the lack of planes and pilots is the only thing slowing us down (and LCA's and instructors). One concern they have now is that if China and Japan open up again fairly quickly, we'd have to move quite a few planes around to take advantage of those markets. A good problem to have.
So, no, he wasn't 'negotiating' with us. I've seen that, and this wasn't it. Did I believe everything he said? I'm not so sure that we can grow without another base, because I'm not sure that I buy us not having more than 50% of the market share in a few of our hubs, though I'm sure we are probably closer to 85% in SFO. I'm also not sure what metrics the company is using to measure that. Revenue per passenger? Pure passenger count? Seat miles? I have no idea.
I just hope we can get this all settled quickly on terms that work for both sides, and I hope we can get a long(ish) contract.
Scott addressed my class (virtually) last week. I wouldn't say he was 'negotiating' anything. He made most of the same statements listed above, but they were all in answer to questions from pilots.
With respect to the RJs, this came up with several members of management, and all emphasized the same two points: RJs no longer work because of RJ pilots are getting paid more than us to fly 50 seaters that can't even carry 50 people, and even with the enhanced pay, the pilot shortage is biting them hard. It was also made clear that some cities will see reductions in service (duh). He wants pilots in the RJs to come here, and not go to any other carrier.
Florida base: his exact words were "I'm not as opposed to it as I used to be, but I still don't see it." The network exec took it a step further, and said that as long as AMR has a big hub in Miami and DL continues to flood Florida from ATL, a Florida base makes zero sense. Scott also made another point about our hubs: the 3 most profitable hubs in the world are DFW, ATL, and CLT, and the reason they make so much money is that the hometown airline in each controls no less than 85% of the market share. We don't have more than 50% in any of our hubs (not including Guam). Until we can create that kind of super-hub, we can't really consider a new base.
The comment about AMR and DL besting our pay immediately was made, but that isn't the company's primary concern, because UAL would do the same thing.
One person asked him what he sees as a potential hiccup for all of the new planes coming, and he was pretty emphatic: a lack of LCAs and instructors. That got brought up several times just by Kirby and then again by others. It's clearly a major, major issue, and it might be the one reason for some optimism in all of this. Airplanes that can't be staffed are a huge liability.
His comments about the union...I'd never seen him try so hard to watch his words. He was a combination of disheartened, embarrassed and frustrated. It's clear that he wants this done, but he was also definitely caught off guard by the response of the pilot group. Does that make any difference in the end? I don't know, but I hope so.
He also addressed a question about the Spirit/Jetblue merger with a degree of glee that one would normally see on Christmas morning. His exact words: "I'm ecstatic! I think it's going to be a huge disaster that we can--and will--take full advantage of."
The premium pay issue didn't come up, but I can certainly understand the company wanting to get the level of premium pay down to a fraction of what it is, but I think it's going to take a while for that to happen.
The issue of a wide-body order was also addressed. He called it a "make or break deal for Boeing." Take that as you will, but it's clearly going to be a sizeable order whenever it is announced. Along this line, he talked about how well we are doing in some markets, and others being weaker than they had hoped. Several managers emphasized a number of different growth spots around the globe, and the lack of planes and pilots is the only thing slowing us down (and LCA's and instructors). One concern they have now is that if China and Japan open up again fairly quickly, we'd have to move quite a few planes around to take advantage of those markets. A good problem to have.
So, no, he wasn't 'negotiating' with us. I've seen that, and this wasn't it. Did I believe everything he said? I'm not so sure that we can grow without another base, because I'm not sure that I buy us not having more than 50% of the market share in a few of our hubs, though I'm sure we are probably closer to 85% in SFO. I'm also not sure what metrics the company is using to measure that. Revenue per passenger? Pure passenger count? Seat miles? I have no idea.
I just hope we can get this all settled quickly on terms that work for both sides, and I hope we can get a long(ish) contract.
08-24-2022, 02:49 AM
#9
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Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 737
Another pilot
Kirby came into PPD class today and again referred to new bases. When specifically asked about MCO he smiled and artfully dodged the question. Other bits…the wide body order will be larger than AAs entire widebody fleet. Believes pilots are the industrys biggest restriction to growth ability…Wants to double pilot hiring to 400/mo and make it so that every other airline is only able to hire to keep up with retirements while UA takes all the pilots to grow. Lastly…doesnt believe age 67 can happen unless alpa flips stance and “vigorously”supports it.
Kirby came into PPD class today and again referred to new bases. When specifically asked about MCO he smiled and artfully dodged the question. Other bits…the wide body order will be larger than AAs entire widebody fleet. Believes pilots are the industrys biggest restriction to growth ability…Wants to double pilot hiring to 400/mo and make it so that every other airline is only able to hire to keep up with retirements while UA takes all the pilots to grow. Lastly…doesnt believe age 67 can happen unless alpa flips stance and “vigorously”supports it.
08-24-2022, 02:52 AM
#10
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Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 737
Originally Posted by Boeing Aviator
Another pilot
Believes pilots are the industrys biggest restriction to growth ability…Wants to double pilot hiring to 400/mo and make it so that every other airline is only able to hire to keep up with retirements while UA takes all the pilots to grow.
Believes pilots are the industrys biggest restriction to growth ability…Wants to double pilot hiring to 400/mo and make it so that every other airline is only able to hire to keep up with retirements while UA takes all the pilots to grow.
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