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Ladies and Gentlemen..
This CRAP has to stop. We can't just keep pushing back a Vote?! Tumi TA1.5/2.0 comes out and most of the sitting Reps vote NO... and it passes by one vote and gets out to the pilots.. and it's still a joke after ALL we have seen from our companies Earning Reports and what the other carriers Pilot Groups are doing. What I keep hearing and seeing from a minority of few is.. lets take a deal, lets extend the timeline to give them the chance to make a deal.. the sky might be falling.. ENOUGH! We don't need to fight (take a swing.. [Yes, there is "irony" there}).. we just need to [b]Hold The Line. I hope and expect my MEC (Mike Hamilton) to put out a mail Tomorrow or Next Week telling every pilot to go in and Vote NO. That the union will let the TA lie where it falls on the 1st of Nov and we are working on a C23 to include what you have told us. We Hear YOU. Now the Company will hear US. We will get a legit UPA but it won't be a fix of TumiTA1.0~ Let's let the system work. Recalls are abound and in the New Year we will have an MEC that follows the will of the pilots. The company can EASILY come at us with a legit C23 in Jan/Feb 2023.. and my bet is that our earnings report in Jan '23 will show another good quarter of Profits~ Stay Calm.. Always Motch |
I’m honestly shocked that the vote results can keep getting kicked down the road. TA1 should have been released as planned. The end. If it fails, move to the next. Don’t keep moving the vote results date.
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Originally Posted by Hedley
(Post 3516491)
TA1 doesn’t stand a chance of passing, but if it did, United pilots would decertify their religion before they decertify ALPA. If it passed, the flushing of the turd reps would intensify, attracting new pilots would take a hit due to even worse work rules, and United next would be put on hold while the training center collapses. Instructors would leave TK, LCA’s would quit, and those that stayed would only be signing students off at the end of trips to ensure that they get paid. I suspect that Kirby wants TA1 to go away even more than we do. Let November 1 come and go, put TA1 behind us, and focus on the new deal.
ALPA knows too much $$ is on the line to take that chance. And if you don’t think United would get rid of ALPA if TA1 ended up passing, your kidding yourself. That’s the old United, brother. The legacy guys here are already the minority. We have 2000 pilots new this year alone. Also, if u think TK and LCAs leave if TA1 passes, I think you forgot to read the TA. While their are concessions for TK and LCAs, they also get bigger raises and TK gets a huge raise. It doesn’t mean TK instructors and LCAs wouldn’t be ****ed, but that’s because they know they won’t always be an LCA or instrcutor. They definitely wouldn’t want to work under the TA1 turd as a jr lineholder or a reserve CA. No one would leave TK and the company would have the United Next they wanted from a training perspective. Sr and med seniority pilots would be ****ed and probably stop picking up OT over the holidays. When they see the new Jr guys getting thr premium pay, the Sr guys would start picking it up again. New pilots would not be hard to find, we have 500 NEW AC on order due to be delivered in the next 5 years and would have the best payrates for the next year most likely (minus Alaska). Dont be naive in thinking there’s no chance this turd passes. Make sure you talk to every single person you know and make sure to share with them why they need to log on and vote no. Remember also that the vote stopped in the middle of the summer and some pilots think TA1 was already cancelled. This would be the biggest blunder in all of aviation unions, but it still wouldn’t stop training or hiring. |
Originally Posted by Zoomie
(Post 3516847)
You sound so confident in TA1 failing. I don’t disagree with you. I said myself, I would take that bet. I said ALPA National will not.
ALPA knows too much $$ is on the line to take that chance. And if you don’t think United would get rid of ALPA if TA1 ended up passing, your kidding yourself. That’s the old United, brother. The legacy guys here are already the minority. We have 2000 pilots new this year alone. Also, if u think TK and LCAs leave if TA1 passes, I think you forgot to read the TA. While their are concessions for TK and LCAs, they also get bigger raises and TK gets a huge raise. It doesn’t mean TK instructors and LCAs wouldn’t be ****ed, but that’s because they know they won’t always be an LCA or instrcutor. They definitely wouldn’t want to work under the TA1 turd as a jr lineholder or a reserve CA. No one would leave TK and the company would have the United Next they wanted from a training perspective. Sr and med seniority pilots would be ****ed and probably stop picking up OT over the holidays. When they see the new Jr guys getting thr premium pay, the Sr guys would start picking it up again. New pilots would not be hard to find, we have 500 NEW AC on order due to be delivered in the next 5 years and would have the best payrates for the next year most likely (minus Alaska). Dont be naive in thinking there’s no chance this turd passes. Make sure you talk to every single person you know and make sure to share with them why they need to log on and vote no. Remember also that the vote stopped in the middle of the summer and some pilots think TA1 was already cancelled. This would be the biggest blunder in all of aviation unions, but it still wouldn’t stop training or hiring. |
Originally Posted by Zoomie
(Post 3516847)
You sound so confident in TA1 failing.
I don’t disagree with you. I said myself, I would take that bet. I said ALPA National will not. ALPA knows too much $$ is on the line to take that chance. And if you don’t think United would get rid of ALPA if TA1 ended up passing, your kidding yourself. That’s the old United, brother. The legacy guys here are already the minority. We have 2000 pilots new this year alone. Also, if u think TK and LCAs leave if TA1 passes, I think you forgot to read the TA. While their are concessions for TK and LCAs, they also get bigger raises and TK gets a huge raise. It doesn’t mean TK instructors and LCAs wouldn’t be ****ed, but that’s because they know they won’t always be an LCA or instrcutor. They definitely wouldn’t want to work under the TA1 turd as a jr lineholder or a reserve CA. No one would leave TK and the company would have the United Next they wanted from a training perspective. Sr and med seniority pilots would be ****ed and probably stop picking up OT over the holidays. When they see the new Jr guys getting thr premium pay, the Sr guys would start picking it up again. New pilots would not be hard to find, we have 500 NEW AC on order due to be delivered in the next 5 years and would have the best payrates for the next year most likely (minus Alaska). Dont be naive in thinking there’s no chance this turd passes. Make sure you talk to every single person you know and make sure to share with them why they need to log on and vote no. Remember also that the vote stopped in the middle of the summer and some pilots think TA1 was already cancelled. This would be the biggest blunder in all of aviation unions, but it still wouldn’t stop training or hiring. I don’t see United ever getting rid of ALPA, just the current leadership. The TK raises might keep angry instructors in place, but the LCA’s would be a major problem, and Kirby knows it. OE students would only get signed off at the end of a trip, not sooner if they are ready, but the big issue is the QC LCA’s. Much of what they do is deadhead around the system doing fed checks on new captains and training new LCA’s on partial trips. Most of those guys aren’t the kool-aid drinking company loyalist that some think they are. If only paid by the leg, a large number of them would either step down or refuse to do line checks. Many of our LCA’s on reserve also have lines built for them where they deadhead around doing random line checks on line pilots. Without these functions being performed, United next would be a mess. I am confident enough to let November 1 come and go. We need to flush this turd and focus on the future. The one good thing that came out of this is that it angered the group and we have had time to see what has gone on at the regionals and now at Alaska. We’re not going to get contract 2000 adjusted for inflation and a pony, but the cost to get to 50% + 1 vote has gone up significantly over what would have got the job done prior to the Tumi TA. |
Originally Posted by Hedley
(Post 3516909)
There’s always a chance that TA1 passes, but there’s also a chance that my wife gives me a hall pass, so yes, I’m pretty confident that neither happens.
I don’t see United ever getting rid of ALPA, just the current leadership. The TK raises might keep angry instructors in place, but the LCA’s would be a major problem, and Kirby knows it. OE students would only get signed off at the end of a trip, not sooner if they are ready, but the big issue is the QC LCA’s. Much of what they do is deadhead around the system doing fed checks on new captains and training new LCA’s on partial trips. Most of those guys aren’t the kool-aid drinking company loyalist that some think they are. If only paid by the leg, a large number of them would either step down or refuse to do line checks. Many of our LCA’s on reserve also have lines built for them where they deadhead around doing random line checks on line pilots. Without these functions being performed, United next would be a mess. I am confident enough to let November 1 come and go. We need to flush this turd and focus on the future. The one good thing that came out of this is that it angered the group and we have had time to see what has gone on at the regionals and now at Alaska. We’re not going to get contract 2000 adjusted for inflation and a pony, but the cost to get to 50% + 1 vote has gone up significantly over what would have got the job done prior to the Tumi TA. |
Originally Posted by SquawkIdent
(Post 3516921)
Regarding the LCA issue, I remember the sales job during the TA1 roadshows at both MEC and LEC meetings. The MEC and NC repeatedly said that the company did not intend to implement the new pay programming for the LCAs "for the foreseeable future" because it was too complex. It was clearly meant to try to limit the backlash of the LCA community for as long as it took to get through the current training push.
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Originally Posted by Hedley
(Post 3516909)
There’s always a chance that TA1 passes, but there’s also a chance that my wife gives me a hall pass, so yes, I’m pretty confident that neither happens.
I don’t see United ever getting rid of ALPA, just the current leadership. The TK raises might keep angry instructors in place, but the LCA’s would be a major problem, and Kirby knows it. OE students would only get signed off at the end of a trip, not sooner if they are ready, but the big issue is the QC LCA’s. Much of what they do is deadhead around the system doing fed checks on new captains and training new LCA’s on partial trips. Most of those guys aren’t the kool-aid drinking company loyalist that some think they are. If only paid by the leg, a large number of them would either step down or refuse to do line checks. Many of our LCA’s on reserve also have lines built for them where they deadhead around doing random line checks on line pilots. Without these functions being performed, United next would be a mess. I am confident enough to let November 1 come and go. We need to flush this turd and focus on the future. The one good thing that came out of this is that it angered the group and we have had time to see what has gone on at the regionals and now at Alaska. We’re not going to get contract 2000 adjusted for inflation and a pony, but the cost to get to 50% + 1 vote has gone up significantly over what would have got the job done prior to the Tumi TA. Newhires after 1 year are already lining up for TK instructors and LCAs have already been backfilled. We already had 4 new QCA LCAs on the 737 who backfilled 2 previous positions by very experienced LCAs with 3/4 very inexperienced LCAs(One with 0 LCA experience and another with a month or 2) Funny u mention OE students getting signed off at the end of a trip…That’s actually current modus operandi. LCAs were told not to try and sign off a student trip per company policy. The backlog was fixed recently with the Sept drawdown. Do u really think QC LCAs would be an issue, you don’t understand pilots at all( are u in current ALPA leadership or been off the line for a decade?). As soon as any QC LCA resigns there will be 100s of LCAs who would be happy to fill those positions. I would never say LCAs are kool aid drinkers, but they aren’t faced with a strike here, this is the choice to train pilots for growth. Unless they are just tired/exhausted they won’t resign, and if they do, they will be replaced by much less experienced LCAs. The only thing I’m arguing here is I don’t think the vote will close Nov 1st. There is way too much on the line to leave this up to chance. At this point, what does ALPA gain with a 90% no vote? Nothing. The company conceded they think it was bad based on market conditions for pilots. The vote will get pushed back to either continue negotiations or to put together the videos and PowerPoints to sell TA2. If it goes to a vote, UAL ALPA has to know it will pass by an overwhelming majority. Only my opinion, I don’t profess insider info. |
Originally Posted by Zoomie
(Post 3516935)
The backlog was fixed recently with the Sept drawdown.
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Originally Posted by jerryleber
(Post 3516938)
What happens to the backlog when the company takes deliver of 170 (20% additional) new aircraft between now and 12/31/23? Why is the company still advertising for I/Es and LCAs?
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Originally Posted by 01110011
(Post 3516941)
Plus I don’t think those shiny new I/E’s/LCA’s are going to stick around if TA2 slips into nothingness. The ones I’ve talked to going that way seem to be rolling the dice on a solid announcement in the near future, if it doesn’t come I don’t think they’ll stick around.
Highlights: I voted NO and suggest we all do the same. I don’t think TA1 passes. I don’t think the vote will close for TA1, ever… too much at risk. TA2 will be delayed from Nov 1 for at least a few weeks. The worst case scenario would be a TA1 closure and it passes somehow due to complacency. I agree LCAs and IEs will start leaving if the can gets kicked down the road long term without an end in sight. I think it’s way too risky to see results of TA1 at this point. TA 2 might get an announcement a few days prior to Nov 1, at that point the date will get pushed back |
Originally Posted by Zoomie
(Post 3516948)
I don’t think u read everything I wrote.
Highlights: I voted NO and suggest we all do the same. I don’t think TA1 passes. I don’t think the vote will close for TA1, ever… too much at risk. TA2 will be delayed from Nov 1 for at least a few weeks. The worst case scenario would be a TA1 closure and it passes somehow due to complacency. I agree LCAs and IEs will start leaving if the can gets kicked down the road long term without an end in sight. I think it’s way too risky to see results of TA1 at this point. TA 2 might get an announcement a few days prior to Nov 1, at that point the date will get pushed back Clearly I'm making significant assumptions above. |
Originally Posted by JTwift
(Post 3516800)
I’m honestly shocked that the vote results can keep getting kicked down the road. TA1 should have been released as planned. The end. If it fails, move to the next. Don’t keep moving the vote results date.
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Originally Posted by That Guy 74
(Post 3517116)
Now that we have recalled C5 and other recalls are in effect, can we get our new LEC reps to take Tumi TA version whatever and drown it in the toilet, let the membership see how the vote turned out, and start fresh?
If the union feels like they’re making good headway on an acceptable contract, great. Press forward & let the company save a little face- for now. If Nov 1 comes & they’re still trying to salvage TUMI, then we can start exerting more pressure. |
As a reminder, what were the rumored pay rates in the Tumi TA?
Alaska is a cumulative 24.4% American is at 19.9% |
Originally Posted by mikea72580
(Post 3519170)
As a reminder, what were the rumored pay rates in the Tumi TA?
Alaska is a cumulative 24.4% American is at 19.9% |
And what about the years that followed?
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Originally Posted by AxlF16
(Post 3516951)
I think the next round of recall votes close on 10Nov. The new LEC officers will likely oppose an AIP at this point. I'm not sure how a vote would be handled between recall & election of interim reps? A roll call would surely fail. Seems that any vote to accept and send to MR would probably have to happen before the 10th.
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Originally Posted by mikea72580
(Post 3519688)
And what about the years that followed?
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Originally Posted by hummingbear
(Post 3519975)
The stated 9.5% (plus LOA 5%) was cumulative. Started at 4 or 5 and worked its way up there by the end. (3 years, I think?)
Did the Tumi TA culminate in a net gain of 14.5% in 2024 like the others? If so, that’s shocking. United Tumi TA pay rates are the only ones that I haven’t seen floating around the internet. Max 737 capt pay for : Alaska PWA-$331 (2024) American New Balance TA-$334 (2024) What was the 2024 737 CA rate on the Tumi TA? |
Originally Posted by AxlF16
(Post 3513952)
This union and pilot group will come unglued if there isn't an TA2 announced in the next 2 weeks. I don't mean that in a good way.
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Originally Posted by RaginCajun
(Post 3520092)
You gonna be ok over there if your expectations aren't met this week?
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Guess I totally was wrong. TUMI TA will close according to MEC on 1 Nov.
Hope to goodness it doesn't pass or we'll be even more of a laughing stock than AAs turd-burger. It better be 90+ % No. |
Tried to logon to alpa voting link. -Yes, I voted back in July, just checking on it.
500 - Internal Server error. Yeah, that's par for the course. |
Guys you’re focused on the wrong thing. Let’s get more of us up in front of customers at gates and galleys making grandiose announcements to fulfill our attention-starved egos.
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Originally Posted by Zoomie
(Post 3520207)
Tried to logon to alpa voting link. -Yes, I voted back in July, just checking on it.
500 - Internal Server error. Yeah, that's par for the course. https://www3.alpa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=6263 Please remind everyone you fly with to cast their NO vote and provide them with the voting link. I've flown with quite a few people over the past weeks who thought the vote was closed or terminated, or who didn't understand what happened on the November 1st deadline. |
Originally Posted by mikea72580
(Post 3520073)
Wow. (9.5 + 5.0) ending when? Alaska and America TA culminate in 2024 at 24.4% and 19.9% raises respectively over 2019 rates.
Did the Tumi TA culminate in a net gain of 14.5% in 2024 like the others? If so, that’s shocking. |
Originally Posted by Barley
(Post 3520308)
Guys you’re focused on the wrong thing. Let’s get more of us up in front of customers at gates and galleys making grandiose announcements to fulfill our attention-starved egos.
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