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Old 06-22-2017 | 08:07 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Probe
Boeing has let their marketing people do deception before.
Supposedly, they changed the designation of their short-range 707 to "720" so that it would sound like a whole new airplane. That made it easier for an airline CEO, who had already chosen the DC-8, to explain this new purchase to the BOD.
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Old 06-22-2017 | 12:45 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
the 787-8 is exactly the same size as the 767-300ER. It just flies to dang far. For that reason it carries to much extra weight. Put in a smaller center tank and up the max ZFW. This should add more cargo room.

The mission we need is sub 12hrs. 150,000ish pounds of fuel should suffice.
You mean like this: https://leehamnews.com/2015/02/25/78...ement-for-757/

It was cancelled for lack of orders.
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Old 06-22-2017 | 01:00 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by azdryheat
You mean like this: https://leehamnews.com/2015/02/25/78...ement-for-757/

It was cancelled for lack of orders.
Not quite. The 787-3 was built as a people mover like the 747-400D. That's why only Japanese airlines ordered it. The 787-3 was supposed to hold 300+ that's why it had no range. 4500 NM is not enough for what we need a plane to do. What the market needs is a 787-8 sized aircraft with 12hr endurance. That should allow for a higher MZFW for more cargo.
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Old 06-22-2017 | 10:52 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Probe
As far as single or double isle, double isle isn't any good until you get to 9 across. The 767 was 7 across. For 1 extra seat per row, you also got an isle. The 767 was 50% heavier than a 757, for 16% more seats. That was not a good tradeoff. There will never be another double isle aircraft with 7 across seating in coach.
Yep; I read an article on single vs twin aisle a few years ago. The bottom line was that airline executives wanted more seats across, not a second aisle. The logic was that seats bring in revenues; aisles don't do anything for revenue.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the future minimum twin aisle configuration be 10 across (3x4x3).
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Old 06-23-2017 | 07:33 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by CLazarus
Everything I've seen in Aviation Week and elsewhere says twin-aisle. The fuselage weight penalty for an extra aisle is not that much, and considering that the fuselage is widely reported to be elliptical I'd say the penalty is almost nil
Are you kidding? The weight and added drag of a larger fuselage for a second aisle is why you don't see any passenger 767-200 aircraft around anymore. It had the highest CASM for that reason alone.
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Old 06-23-2017 | 07:37 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by N6279P
Are you kidding? The weight and added drag of a larger fuselage for a second aisle is why you don't see any passenger 767-200 aircraft around anymore. It had the highest CASM for that reason alone.
The two aisles is designed to have an airplane with over 200 seats that doesn't take 45+ minutes to board and deboard. You'd need over 90 minutes to switch crews with a single-aisle 200+ seat plane. Certainly getting the plane to turn an hour is not going to happen unless they are 2 aisles with 230 seats.
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Old 06-23-2017 | 07:57 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by svergin
The two aisles is designed to have an airplane with over 200 seats that doesn't take 45+ minutes to board and deboard. You'd need over 90 minutes to switch crews with a single-aisle 200+ seat plane. Certainly getting the plane to turn an hour is not going to happen unless they are 2 aisles with 230 seats.
Does Spirit take 90mins to turn a 321? Honestly not sure but I think they're around 220 seats. I know SWA does a clean as you go method to speed up turns. I really wonder whether a few minutes of turn time makes up for boring a much larger hole in the sky w/ a twin aisle at 200-230-ish pax and a much bigger fuel burn normally. Any way you cut it - even w/ a non round cross section, about 2x the internal volume will be apportioned to aisle vs a narrow body. We'll see if Boeing reinvents aerodynamics with the 797 or sticks w/ single aisle haha.
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Old 06-23-2017 | 10:27 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by N6279P
Are you kidding? The weight and added drag of a larger fuselage for a second aisle is why you don't see any passenger 767-200 aircraft around anymore. It had the highest CASM for that reason alone.
Nope. I didn't say seven across, I assume at least 2+4+2 or greater (never more than one seat away from an aisle, that would be nice). If you take a gander at some of the advanced military airlifter concepts out there, lifting bodies are coming. I'm sure a 797 won't be a pure lifting body, but it will benefit from the subsidies... er, research.

Like I said before, an aircraft able to carry 250ish people that can fit comfortably into existing narrowbody gates and be turned faster than an 8 Max. It is the only compelling design I can think of that we'd want to be a launch customer for. It might not look all that different than what is already out there, and Boeing certainly made it seem that way this week in Paris.

However, I duly note the possibility that Boeing's marketing department might be dispensing bundles of chaff.
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Old 06-23-2017 | 02:09 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by CLazarus
Nope. I didn't say seven across, I assume at least 2+4+2 or greater (never more than one seat away from an aisle, that would be nice). If you take a gander at some of the advanced military airlifter concepts out there, lifting bodies are coming. I'm sure a 797 won't be a pure lifting body, but it will benefit from the subsidies... er, research.

Like I said before, an aircraft able to carry 250ish people that can fit comfortably into existing narrowbody gates and be turned faster than an 8 Max. It is the only compelling design I can think of that we'd want to be a launch customer for. It might not look all that different than what is already out there, and Boeing certainly made it seem that way this week in Paris.

However, I duly note the possibility that Boeing's marketing department might be dispensing bundles of chaff.
Boeing BWB.
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Old 06-23-2017 | 03:31 PM
  #40  
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I like the looks (and livery) of this one better:



[but we all know it will end up as a boring mini-787 tube with wings]
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