Nope.

But without a collective bargaining agreement with actual protections the JB pilot group is seriously disadvantaged in a merger with any legacy airline. It's not just a UAL issue. Without a CBA with solid successorship language it would be trivially easy to complete a non-operational acquisition of JB assets and offer "job opportunities" to selected JB employees, if even that. That's the stick that any legacy has in working out a deal with JB.

Voting ALPA was a major step forward for JB pilots but the ball is not across the line (yet) and the "status quo" employment agreements were specifically written to both disadvantage JB pilots and make JB more valuable as an acquisition target.

I appreciate the honesty.
I still think this never happens but god help us if it does.

You got that right.
We are pushing and the above was a big reason why.

Yup.

I left JB exactly 10 years ago and was quite vocal about this issue before departing.

Thus, I'm mildly conflicted.

On one hand I feel really bad for my friends there, and especially the ones that have been fighting the good fight, while on the other hand I don't have much sympathy for a pilot group that has literally squandered a decade.

This is not a new achilles heel.

Except it is only part of the pilot group.
2011 DOH voted yes first chance I could.
There are plenty of guys who have been fighting before I got here so it wouldn't be fair to punish a whole group because of a few. I hope this rally is a good shot at our mgt and we can get that CBA. I feel we will buy someone(we already tried) or be bought so we need it done now.

Lol!!!!!........

Ooh.. I want to play since I mis-predicted the UAL/CAL seniority list so badly. I thought the arbitrators would split the two proposals. Maybe I'll get this one right.

Based on our ALPA Merger, JB #1 pilot would be about 3,000 on the "status and category only" list, since that's how many 757,767,777,787 Captains we have at United. A 1999 hire would be slotted in at 8,000 on the "Longevity only" list. So if JB had career expectations and current pay equal to United, and they applied the UAL/CAL merger model, and 50% weighting was used for each, the #1 JB Captain would be slotted in about 5,500.

Then after about the number of Jet Blue Captains were placed on the list (10 for 1 or something like that), they would have to skip another 3,500 down the list, since that would represent 757,767,777, and 787 FOs that aren't available to JB pilots right now. By that time, you'd be at the bottom and many FOs would be stapled.

But since it would be a windfall to all of a sudden have the UAL contract and be able to based out of numerous bases that didn't exist before, and have access to WB at some point, then JB Capt #1 is likely going in around 7,000 to 8,000 and by the time the last one is on the list, you are very close to the bottom with a big old staple job for the FOs.

Especially since a lot of pilots have left JB to come to United.

Look at SWA/AirTran and SWA didn't have 6,000 WB Capt/FO jobs. It was almost solely based on the superior contract.

But I agree, not going to happen.

Closer, but still not it. Go back and look at the % of longevity awarded over the last 3-4 big mergers. They didn't average anywhere near 50%.

Also, there wouldn't be any stapling of JB FOs. They'd be slotted in based on cat/class and % of longevity agreed upon/arbitrated.

This is all just talking in circles, as has been pointed out the divesitures required would make a JB aquistition no longer advantageous... but I wanna play.

Some kind of fence seems to be the answer barring a straight staple job. There has to be a means by which everyone keeps their seats/QOL (pay windfall for the acquired group not withstanding) but no premerger (insert LCC merged pilot group) is awarded above a narrow body until the last UAL pilot is... It would have to be in such a fashion as to avoid the flood gate/displacement situation that has played out with the UAL/CAL merger. Not sure how you do that.

JB/UAL, if they could get away with it... would be a monster of a carrier.

Really? UAL/CAL was given 35% credit for longevity. That's definitely in the ballpark of "near" 50%. That's almost 9,000 pilots with more longevity than any JB pilot.

AMR/USAir aren't ALPA. There has only been 1 MAJOR airline merger under the new policy. UAL/CAL and it was 35% longevity. You can look at the last 3-4, but some of them were under the OLD policy.

Didn't really like the longevity component for the last merger, but I'm liking it more and more every day, especially with the Spirit/JB/et.al. airlines becoming ALPA.

Ummm....that's a pretty meaningless average considering that ALPA merger policy significantly changed over the course of those mergers.

For example, the UAL/CAL merger which was the first significant merger under the current policy which is important considering the major revision to the current policy was to specifically include longevity.

Each merger is arbitrated on it's own merits and considering the three primary components of the current policy I'd suggest that a UAL/JB combination would be quite asymmetric on all three counts and certainly far more than UAL/CAL. YMMV.

If this is how most UA guys feel, there would be a lot of ****ed off pilots after the SLI came out. Hell, why not just staple them all...they're lucky to even have a job with you guys, right?

The slotting would be significantly higher than most of the recent guesses here.....to think otherwise is foolish.

But it's never going to happen right...so no need for either side to worry....;)

Unfortunately that would be a given regardless of outcome. We are talking about two VERY different airlines in virtually every aspect.

Nope, just the terrible two hundred. ;)

Everybody needs to take the emotion out of it. Not easy, I know, and that's why there are arbitrators. There are three key factors in the current ALPA merger policy that must considered. Rationally look at those for insight, not a wag of how other mergers went down.

But ---and here's the elephant in the room--- if something happens before JB gets a collective bargaining agreement with solid successorship language all bets are off. JB pilots simply have no foundation to base their claims, including continued employment after a transaction of any sort.

It could make SWA/AirTran look like a walk in the park----and that was two narrowbody airlines. AirTran had weak language (relatively speaking) which partially enabled SWA to pull its stunt with a management and union on the same page exploiting every loophole. Now consider an entity with status-quo language that actually makes things worse for its pilots.

That's something that JB pilots can control, not UA.

So let's assume UA is in talks to buy JB. I assume they would be talking right now and this would not be a surprise to our management. At the same time we are negotiating a CBA. Would it be better for UA to do the deal after a CBA which would have clear language for us or try to grab us now and who knows what that would lead to.

This thread talks about a fleet plan as much as the company does... [emoji16]

Since you are talking about a merger with Spirit, wouldn't it be "bright yellow parachute land" instead? :D

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there!

What's America West called now? Oh, that's right American Airlines.

Quote of the day!!!!!

A) SWA-AirTran was a decided without an arbitrator. It would be hard to include that as evidance in a an arbitrated SLI.

B) What is shocking and even more so disappointing, is seening LUAL and LCAL guys proposing a SLI that would include all the things they hated about the CAL-UAL SLI. Again it is all about "me", and not about what is "right" for all while setting an example of being professional.

I was hired at UA in 2000. Double furloughee. Now have 1000 guys hired after me that are above me. (Not whining, just stating fact)
How would we slot in JB pilots? Surely some guy at JB hired in 2001 or later, knowing he was only going to fly NB aircraft, shouldn't be above me. Right????

Not gonna happen anyway. It's going to be Spirit. The FLL agents say that all the UA big whigs were down there for a meeting a few weeks ago in Miramar, HQ of Spirit.

Can I get an AMEN from the congregation? This is just dumb to talk about something that probably won't happen and if it did, the DOJ probably wouldn't approve it. Too much overlap, too many slots in slotted airports, and too close to a monopoly in NYC. Besides, if it did begin to happen Delta and American would have something to say about it. Also, Delta has more money than anyone right now so in a bidding war, they would probably win. Or at least elevate the cost beyond where it actually makes sense.

How's that happen?

Wafu is probably referring to the CAL 2005, 2006 hires.

So we're CAL pilots added ahead of UAL pilots in the SLI?

I have also heard about this through a different source (not FLL gate agents, an OAL pilot). I did not hear specifically which big wigs attended

Most if not all were.

UAL wants all Spirits 319s that's the story

I think Spirit only owns 1 or 2 of them. The rest are leased.

Any idea why? That sounds like CAL acquired UAL, and took the UAL name since they were placed ahead of United.

I'm calling BS. 99.9% of guys out there including me wouldn't know our own leadership in a line up, let alone other airline leadership. Never mind a gate agent.

To include the leased ones for a total of 19 frames to replace RJ flying

Spirit has to agree as well

It's the way mergers work man. You have to be involved in one to know.

Yes. We were a quickly growing airline with faster upgrades (2006 hires were in left seats before the SLI) and that gave us a boost that overrode the longevity of many United pilots.

Nobody acquired anybody. It was a merger. The two airlines merged to create one, which is why its called United Continental Holdings. If you looked at two pilots hired the same day, the CAL pilot might be a Captain and the United pilot might be an FO. That's why it wasn't just a longevity integration.

I would bet a lot of $$$ that there isn't one United Pilot with an application in at JetBlue...... I bet 40% of JetBlue pilots have their apps in at United. They are willing to come over and start on the bottom. That is where 90% of JetBlue pilots would be placed if UAL bought JetBlue. It wouldn't be a "merger". I fly with newhires that came from JetBlue and they are the ones who told me of all the guys wanting to leave.

Our FO's make more $$$ than your CA's. We have a huge WB fleet we have been here a lot longer than most JB pilots. I can go on and on but it's a waist of time. UAL buying JB is just wishful thinking.

They are messing with you.

Virtually* all pilots ended up within a percentage or two on the final list compared to their pre-merger list. How that came to pass and the reasons for the end result can be found in several thousand posts on APC. The final award with the arbitrators explanation can also be found online in serval places.

(*Virtually because there were a few bands of outliers that did end up outside a few points.)

Times change, I hope you don't think United will always be the top dog. But I do find your offer to slot in 10% of our pilot group to be very generous, thank you.
While there are plenty of guys that would like to go to United I would say your 40% number is just a little high.

One last thing it's not the JetBlue guys making this up and wishfully thinking about the joys of a merger without a cba. This has been coming from the United side.

My experience being a UA FO that hustles and does pretty well is that I am not even remotely close to pulling in what several of my JB capt friends pull in. As a matter of fact they make more than most of the narrowbody captains I fly with at UA.

While you and I and most everybody else wouldn't notice or care if OM or whoever was walking through the terminal, when he arrives on one of our flights, you can bet everybody in the station from the GM on down to the ramp crew will know there is a company VIP on board, and the flight would be given extra attention.