New Displacement Out
 

The final one for both 747 and the IAH 787 base.

Over 40 747 FOs alone can hold 787 CA. It could get interesting. Best of luck to all.

Remember when all those junior CAL guys got 787 Captain due to the fences?

That's about to be fixed.:D

Yeah, talk about unintended consequences...

Where's Sled, he's usually all over these BUMPITY BUMP BUMP announcements?!?

Goes to show how asinine the fences were in the first place.

Remember when a few senior UAL guys demanded a fence for a dying widebody fleet due to some vague assumption of prestige? Remember how protecting that small minority screwed the vast majority of UAL pilots from a lot of productive WB flying as fleets shuffled? That's still being fixed. Hail the whale.

Remember all the shenanigans and deliberate foot dragging from the Cal Alpa side (like pay banding) while the Cal only upgrade parties were kicking? Well, gentlemen. I give you the Mother Of All Displacements. The MOAD. Senior individuals are about to trickle down like Reagan's voodoo economics. It will be both tragic and beautiful, akin to the Denver justice that took place 2 summers ago.

Release the hounds!!

INCOMING!!!

LOOK OUT BELOW!!!!! 😮😮

I don't get why this bid has to be open for so long...almost 3 weeks? Its not like these guys haven't had time to mull over their options.

I am guessing we may technically be in "reduction mode" based on some of the minimums in the recent bulletins. When you put the minimums as low as they did on the recent 777 CA vacancy (every 756 CA position at 20 below current staffing) you end up having a consequence of being in reduction mode?


8-E-5 The Company shall calculate the system-wide total Captain positions that are published
as the minimum number of Captain positions in each vacancy or displacement bulletin. If the
number of published minimum Captain positions has declined at any point in the six (6) month
period prior to and including the publication date of a displacement bulletin, the Company
shall be deemed to be in “reduction mode” when administering that displacement bulletin. If
there have been no other vacancy or displacement bulletins in the previous six (6) months,
the comparison shall be made between the published displacement bulletin and the most
recently published vacancy or displacement bulletin.

8-E-6-a Displacement bids shall be open for at least twenty (20) days after the publication
date of a displacement bulletin. If the Company is not in “reduction mode,” it may decrease
this twenty (20) day period to fourteen (14) days.

Good catch...I hadn't read that section very closely.

Even if they do get bumped out, which I doubt, it still worked. Those guys got good paying jobs for 4-5 years out of seniority because of the fence. The pilots who have already retired from those positions, or soon to retire, won't care what happens because they got to finish their career in the highest paying BES.

Have you seen how old some of these pilots are? Some of them are still learning how to use a computer.

The company will take any delay possible until we're back on track with TK and hiring.

Yeah I heard Willis is being inundated with bid sheets on the fax machine. :D

I'm sure some of them will want to mail in their bids.

Could always have the FO ACARS it in for them...

You mean like this?


captain smith fnxxxxxx would
like to displace to gum 737 f/o

thanks

f/o jones

Revisionist history at its finest and please remind me which airline was receiving their pre-merger, previously ordered airframes at the same time?

All I remember is a thoroughly crappy T/A being shoved down our throats to make a few Pilots on one side of the merger happy. Had we stuck to our guns, we'd have been a lot better off with a far better CBA as a result. Fence was solely introduced by the UAL side and the CAL MEC asked them to forgo it or risk the consequences.

Typo... CLE 737 f/o

Pepperdine Farms remembers

Pepperidge?

(almost) for the win...

Where were these airframes being deployed? Who was gonna pay for them? No matter. I know first hand that Bumpity Bumps are the great equalizer. They put you EXACTLY where you wanna be. No vacancy needed. Bring em on. Keep em coming. 👍 😎

im not a big fan of massive displacements. They disadvantage the pilots that are not in closing BES whom are patiently awaiting upgrade or wb. For instance, the junior position on sfo 787 ca is 3000 (due to fence). The junior position on the 777 sfo is 2000. 2000 is realistic number for holding wb Capt in sfo. You will see a lot of 2000-3000 seniority pilots bump into sfo. The end result is that more pilots who are too junior for the position will be taking wb Capt slots thus keeping the more senior pilots whom aren't subject to displacement from being awarded in a future vacancy.

L-CAL scabs will be bumping into widebody positions throughout the system. This hasn't "fixed" anything. There probably won't even be bumps from SFO and LAX 787 CA due to retirements and the expanding SFO 777 base.

We, you know UCH pilots, are losing widebody jobs and hulls and you are cheering?

This is a systemwide shrinkage of our fleet and flying. The stagnation that LAX, ORD, and IAH have seen will now be the reality for SFO, welcome to the club.

We are screwed as a pilot group because of this kind of attitude. This type of shortsidedness resulted in two contracts with the 767-300 paying narrow body rates, pure genius!

Maybe it is time for a Longevity based pay system and ditch the archaic Weight based system we have had for decades. Then nobody chases airplanes and bases which destroys their QOL for money.

Also, who cares what airplanes the company buys, fly the airplane that fits your butt. The company spends the same amount of money on pilot payroll and buys the correct airplane for their mission and doesn't have to figure in the pilot Drama.

Of course, this would be a big change for ALPA and it wouldn't fit into their Pattern Bargining scheme so it will never be discussed.

Stay the Course and hold the line!

Spoken like someone junior trying to hold onto their seat.

How do you figure system wide shrinkage there Dave? Also how are we losing WB jobs?

Look at the active pilot totals on the last 4 vacancy bids. We are shrinking.

Yup, are we all not trying to hold on to our seats? Some of us have been around for a lot longer than others, and have seen have fast the money losing airplanes can disappear in a heartbeat.

Oscar made an interesting comment in the Pacific a few weaks ago. "We have way more International Widebody airplanes than we have profitable wide body routes, and not enough domestic airplanes for all the profitable domestic flying." He doesn't see that changing in the very near future. Way too much competition from foreign carriers.

We need to follow the money, not the airplane.

Damn auto correct lol

Those numbers are ARTIFICIAL. They are only in place because of the backlog in training, TK being a mess, and the uncertainty of where the bumping pilots are going.

We will have more 777-300s flying than we ever had 747s flying post-merger, this doesn't include 787s coming still, we just added two new International routes, one which will require 2 Captains and 2 FOs, and our total fleet count is going to be up at the end of the year.

Your analysis based on looking at vacancy bids going from spring into summer is a poor representation of the real world. It would be like looking at the average temperatures in your town over the last 6 months and declaring that in a year it will be 130 degrees if that rate continued.

We are certainly NOT shrinking.

We're not shrinking Dave that min max sheet is about as useless as tits on a bull. Of course our active pilots are going down we are still retiring and hiring is on hold for a couple months.

Exactly. There were a bunch of BES's that have been way overstaffed for several years. Yes, we might be shrinking the number of WB bodies, but that is because we have been paying way to many to hang around JSLED's pool and get paid.

It is nice if you are one of them, but not so good for an airline trying to compete.

So you are saying we have less pilots in the summer of 2017 than in the summer of 2016 because hiring is less than losses. Can you show me how that is growth and not shrinkage?

Our wide body fleet count will be less year end 2017 than it was year end 2016. Can you show me how that is not shrinkage?

The number of pilots on the seniority list being paid widebody pay year end 2017 will be less than year end 2016. Can you show me how that is not a shrinkage?

Our narrow body fleet has grown year over year, But our narrow body CA staffing has been relatively flat.

There are a bunch of aircraft orders and options pending over the next ten years, but we also have large amount of aircraft that are 20 + years old. Whether we grow or shrink over the next ten years is a good as anybody's guess.

I'm going to stick to my assertion that in December we will have less total pilots and airframes year over year.

Ok Dave have fun living in the Darkness.

We had a longevity based pay at CAL prior to Contract 97. The reason we switched to a differential pay system was to bring up top CA and FO pay rates. Since many more pilots top out under a longevity based pay system (even rasing the cap from a 12 year max to a 20 or 25 year cap to max out) far more pilots hit the top longevity pay numbers . This significantly lowers the top rates given the same total contractual pilot pay cost in both pay systems.

If we were to transition to a longevity pay system in our next contract we'd need significant pay increases just bring the max longevity pay up to match current CA & FO WB rates. Then on top of that negotiate further pay increases. In my opinion highly unlikely.

For a traditional International network carrier like us, I strongly believe a differential pay system is the best pay system. This honors seniority and allows senior CA's and FO's to maximize pay and retirement.

IPA at UPS is the only one I know of to successfully get their longevity pay rates up relatively high. However this has occurred over several long and intense contract battles since the late 80's early 90's.

My two cents. I like our system, but it can be tweaked to a true differential pay system which again would help the majority of our pilots and honor seniority.

Yes, this is the propaganda spewed from ALPA for the last 55 plus years that I have grown up under an ALPA contract (from a family of ALPA Pilots). This was true when we had Defined Benefit Retirement plans and a large percentage of retired Military Pilots joining the profession in their 40's. it was important to reach maximum pay when you were within 5 years of mandatory retirement age of 60.

Today we don't have these retirement programs and the majority of pilots are being hired in their twenties and thirties. Different times now and we should have a different pay scheme. Don't you think a 30 year pilot should make more than a 12 year pilot? What difference does it make what size airplane you fly. The size of the airplane doesn't represent the profitability of the job your performing. As a matter of fact today, the domestic airplanes are carrying the money losing Wide Body fleet at United.

Like I have said before, we need to start thinking outside the box and don't let tradition take us down the Rabbit Hole again and again.

Put down the crack pipe. The guppy is not carrying the 777.

30 yr pilot should have more OPTIONS on how they want to work now than a 12 yr pilot. That is exactly what the current system provides. They can chose more pay or more QOL. Even a combination of both.

Bigger/faster = more pay. It's the most basic of concepts.

If they box isn't broken you don't need to fix it.

Is your name Leonard or Jeff?????? If you're really a 787 CA I'm guessing your an 83-85 hire.

Minimum of one displacement after this one if not two. DCA 777 FO (the min number in that BES is not artificial), LAX 777 both seats, LAX 787 both seats, SFO 787 both seats, and IAH 777 both seats.

If we displace off of the 756 in any domicile other than IAH that would be a bad signal not even MOP could ignore.

Lax 777 has already been announced. It's just going through the paperwork required.

I have no doubts that the IAH 756 CA will displace again. It's insanely junior due to one base trade that allowed a ton of displacements to slide in. They tried to fix it but there were enough volunteers that it still let some folks in with almost 7000 seniority.