Originally Posted by PDRit (Post 2599797)

Or 95% volunteering for SRM or VDO. When push comes to shove that will be a status quo item to the court.

Originally Posted by Aquaticus (Post 2600039)

Ewr is also the odd man out here. We generally meet at the plane. The same leg distance lax-sfo or reverse would almost always meet in the briefing room. I like getting to the airplane as soon as I can so I can get the ball rolling on handling the little nuisance items like cabin temp and flight attendant inspection write ups.

Originally Posted by Sunvox (Post 2599965)

The 45 minute report is a bad hold back of a previous LCAL "efficiency" issue

Originally Posted by Itsajob (Post 2599996)

Not trying to pick a legacy fight. The idea of meeting as a crew to brief a domestic leg was never practiced at any airline I have ever worked. Is this just a LUAL culture deal where that is just the way things were done? The crews at Delta, American, Southwest...... just meet at the plane and go from there. Just trying to figure out what needs to be done in a weather room for a leg from EWR-BOS that can’t be done at the plane. If you’re flying EWR-PVG up over the pole then obviously that’s a little more involved. Not poking fun at either side. I’m actually curious since that’s something that we don’t do in IAH.

Originally Posted by 757Driver (Post 2600135)

You're not picking a fight at all but simply stating the obvious. Meeting at the FPA is a dinasouric old UAL thing that they simply can't let go of.

As you point out, NOBODY else does this but for some unexplainable reason they consider it safer. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by webecheck (Post 2600171)

Unbelievable. I actually am going to concur with 757driver. Both of his posts. The iPad is a glorious thing, and everything is right at your fingertips, to be reviewed on the van ride in. Probably should even shorten the 45 minute shows to 30, provided the Capts are willing to do some box work or a walkaround. If you want 30 minute shows in a junior base on a new hire fleet, and intend to just sit there or chat with FAs until the FO has everything ready, good luck.

And why do people care whether it’s looked at in the hotel before pick up, in the van, of after the report window begins? It’s your work to do and just needs to be done. I’ve never flown with anyone who refuses to look at anything until inside of report time....that’s an outlier to be wary of for sure.

Originally Posted by Sunvox (Post 2600718)

I totally disagree with both of you.

Originally Posted by Sunvox (Post 2600718)

I totally disagree with both of you.

First off you need to understand that flight planning with the FO in the flight planning office was the way most LUAL flights were done before the merger and the vast majority of LUAL captain's still do that today. Going straight to the plane was an unusual event when you were particularly late or wanted to grab food. 90% of the time pilots went first to the flight planning office and sat down at a table to review all the papers and only after BOTH pilots had looked everything over did the captain sign the release and then BOTH pilots went together to the plane.


Also, there is absolutely no way a domestic pilot can load his iPad, read all the NOTAMS and review the DIL and review the weather forecast for the destination and enroute and alternate and discuss MEL items and fuel with your FO and THEN do a full setup in an A320 when the van drops you off 45 minutes prior.

You can say no one at LCAL ever had a problem with 30 minutes, but I will tell you I had a friend at the commuters who got violated because he didn't read a NOTAM about a changed minimum on an ILS into HPN and shot an approach when visibility was below the NOTAM'd limit. I had my own case as an FO on the 767 when flying to ZRH with GVA listed as an alternate. Turns out buried deep in the NOTAMs was a tiny note saying GVA would be closed for the time period we were going to arrive. The next closest suitable alternate ended up causing us to add gas. Who knows what choices we might have been faced with if I hadn't caught that note. What about our guys that missed the tid-bit about calling Turkey ahead of crossing VESAR that got in trouble. Do you think a little more time reviewing the available info might have been prudent?

Cutting corners in reviewing information may work most of the time as there isn't much relevant in there 99% of the time, but skip something important just once and you may be in trouble.

Originally Posted by 757Driver (Post 2600733)

Duly noted but as pointed out, you're completely in the minority on this as no other airline does this anymore. Perhaps its day has come and gone and some of the UAL types are just to proud to admit that it really serves no purpose?

I launch all the time despite the 5 pages of Notams in there as does the entire rest of the industry and do it in way less time than you've indicated.

Quite frankly if you're so concerned about every single detail listed in the paperwork, might it be safest of all to never leave the warm, comfy confines of the hallowed FPA and just stay on the ground? :D

Originally Posted by Sunvox (Post 2601982)

I said earlier from a real world standpoint today I feel like I work for a company that is worth putting in the "extra mile" so I have no bones about loading and reviewing the FPF in the van . . . TODAY . . .

but

legacy United pilots had a long history of holding the company to our contract and not doing extra when the situation between pilots and management was adversarial. So I just wish pilots at the new United could all agree that reviewing the FPF in the van is a form of going the extra mile, and we need to document that fact in an ongoing basis so it doesn't become "past practice" that suddenly turns into a contract requirement. That would be a HUGE loss.

Originally Posted by Sunvox (Post 2600718)

I totally disagree with both of you.



First off you need to understand that flight planning with the FO in the flight planning office was the way most LUAL flights were done before the merger and the vast majority of LUAL captain's still do that today. Going straight to the plane was an unusual event when you were particularly late or wanted to grab food. 90% of the time pilots went first to the flight planning office and sat down at a table to review all the papers and only after BOTH pilots had looked everything over did the captain sign the release and then BOTH pilots went together to the plane.





Also, there is absolutely no way a domestic pilot can load his iPad, read all the NOTAMS and review the DIL and review the weather forecast for the destination and enroute and alternate and discuss MEL items and fuel with your FO and THEN do a full setup in an A320 when the van drops you off 45 minutes prior.



You can say no one at LCAL ever had a problem with 30 minutes, but I will tell you I had a friend at the commuters who got violated because he didn't read a NOTAM about a changed minimum on an ILS into HPN and shot an approach when visibility was below the NOTAM'd limit. I had my own case as an FO on the 767 when flying to ZRH with GVA listed as an alternate. Turns out buried deep in the NOTAMs was a tiny note saying GVA would be closed for the time period we were going to arrive. The next closest suitable alternate ended up causing us to add gas. Who knows what choices we might have been faced with if I hadn't caught that note. What about our guys that missed the tid-bit about calling Turkey ahead of crossing VESAR that got in trouble. Do you think a little more time reviewing the available info might have been prudent?



Cutting corners in reviewing information may work most of the time as there isn't much relevant in there 99% of the time, but skip something important just once and you may be in trouble.

Originally Posted by climb (Post 2602302)

^Easy. Block out only when you have everything done.

Originally Posted by Floyd (Post 2602075)

The company enjoys a pay and duty benefit with a :45 min report. Some are more than happy to oblige with a gitterdone at any cost attitude. Flight planning in the hotel room or van just masks the issue at hand. As mentioned, a thorough preflight consumes :45 min. Throw in a couple operational issues, a lengthy MEL and you can easily see that :45 min is not enough unless you cut corners. What's your answer going to be to the NTSB?

Two sets of eyes are critical when looking at the flight papers. The text me if you're copasetic might work in most occasions. There are times when a face to face discussion is more appropriate. I think our flight attendants and passengers deserve better than a haphazard operational attitude when it comes to flight planning.

Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald (Post 2601919)

Sorry, but he is not in the minority. You are not reviewing all the paperwork and betting your ticket every time you do that.

I have caught quite a few things that dispatch either did not see or never looked at. That is what we are paid to do. For the last 25 years, I just can't seem to do a preflight in less than 20 minutes, and that is if nothing goes wrong and I'm not interrupted. Doing a preflight and flight papers in that time, I'm skeptical.

if you do the job the FOM requires us to do, no interruptions, or distractions, you can do it in the allotted minimum time, barely. If you manage to do it in less, you are cutting corners--my experience.

Arguing because no one else is doing it is not a valid point. That's what got NASA in trouble with the space shuttle. It worked before! Serves no purpose, reviewing flight papers, weather, notams? Yes, I am one of those UAL types, and will continue to be one.

Originally Posted by Sunvox (Post 2600718)

I totally disagree with both of you.

First off you need to understand that flight planning with the FO in the flight planning office was the way most LUAL flights were done before the merger and the vast majority of LUAL captain's still do that today. Going straight to the plane was an unusual event when you were particularly late or wanted to grab food. 90% of the time pilots went first to the flight planning office and sat down at a table to review all the papers and only after BOTH pilots had looked everything over did the captain sign the release and then BOTH pilots went together to the plane.


Also, there is absolutely no way a domestic pilot can load his iPad, read all the NOTAMS and review the DIL and review the weather forecast for the destination and enroute and alternate and discuss MEL items and fuel with your FO and THEN do a full setup in an A320 when the van drops you off 45 minutes prior.

You can say no one at LCAL ever had a problem with 30 minutes, but I will tell you I had a friend at the commuters who got violated because he didn't read a NOTAM about a changed minimum on an ILS into HPN and shot an approach when visibility was below the NOTAM'd limit. I had my own case as an FO on the 767 when flying to ZRH with GVA listed as an alternate. Turns out buried deep in the NOTAMs was a tiny note saying GVA would be closed for the time period we were going to arrive. The next closest suitable alternate ended up causing us to add gas. Who knows what choices we might have been faced with if I hadn't caught that note. What about our guys that missed the tid-bit about calling Turkey ahead of crossing VESAR that got in trouble. Do you think a little more time reviewing the available info might have been prudent?

Cutting corners in reviewing information may work most of the time as there isn't much relevant in there 99% of the time, but skip something important just once and you may be in trouble.

Originally Posted by Sunvox (Post 2602860)

You guys opposed to the thorough planning crowd are missing the primary point which I posted earlier.

Having the right to a flight planning area and time to flight plan was a hard fought union gain. Giving it up for nothing is foolish. THAT is the main issue.

Originally Posted by 757Driver (Post 2602667)

Drama much ?

I have no problem getting the aircraft prepared and doing all of the above mentioned duties in less than 30. Not sure what on earth you’re doing in the FPA for 45+ minutes but I’m guessing multi-tasking isn’t your strong suit.

Have no idea why the UAL types cling to this prehistoric remnant from a long ago era but it’s bordering on the ridiculous. Don’t believe me, just ask some of your chums at the other airlines.

Originally Posted by Glenntilton (Post 2602955)

On a vanilla flight, 45 minutes is fine, it is those situation where WX, MNX, etc, that is where we need to protect having 60 minutes as a minimum.

Get back to 60 minutes for domestic, IMHO.

Originally Posted by A320 (Post 2602699)

I have no problem with meeting at the plane. Signing off on the flight plan and fuelnwithout any discussion with the FO first is unacceptable. Changing the van time unilaterally without actual concurrence with the FO unacceptable. I am ok with the FO starting the APU ASAFP when they get on the plane in the summer since we all know the ground air sux.

Originally Posted by Itsajob (Post 2602331)

Leave it to pilots to make something harder than it really is. Every other airline doesn’t make it this hard. United is no more professional or safe than any other airline, but I guess there are people at every company who think their way is better. This is just one of those deals. It’s a cultural belief system void of any data showing it to be superior, but with unquestioned loyalty to the concept.

Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald (Post 2604067)

Uggghhh….Yes, we are. I expect UAL to be better than every other airline out there.

This is not just one of those deals. As stated, our passengers expect a safe travel experience. Cutting corners is not the way to do it. Again, how do you explain it the NTSB at the accident hearing, if you are able to tell them?

This is a no brainer. Do the work you are contracted, and required to do. Anything less is cutting corners and putting everyone, and your tickets in jeopardy.

Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald (Post 2604067)

Uggghhh….Yes, we are. I expect UAL to be better than every other airline out there.

This is not just one of those deals. As stated, our passengers expect a safe travel experience. Cutting corners is not the way to do it. Again, how do you explain it the NTSB at the accident hearing, if you are able to tell them?

This is a no brainer. Do the work you are contracted, and required to do. Anything less is cutting corners and putting everyone, and your tickets in jeopardy.

Originally Posted by Floyd (Post 2602575)

Do you think most would do as you suggest or....?

Originally Posted by Floyd (Post 2602575)

Do you think most would do as you suggest or....?

Originally Posted by 757Driver (Post 2604119)

Many of us have operated our flights for years without incident and do not require to accomplish it using your so called safer method of doing things.

Originally Posted by climb (Post 2604305)

"normalization of deviance"

Originally Posted by climb (Post 2604165)

or what? are you saying large numbers of flights operate unprepared? What about in a less than 45min turn? Are you unable to short turn a -700 or 319? what about 20min turn times for RJ's? 30min for SWA?

The other day I heard a 777 crew on a domestic flight who wanted 1.5 hours to get ready.

Its all about what you are used to.. and you are trained to operate at a glacial pace. I suggest working at your routine and making the effort to speed up.