Report time changes
 

Hey Guys your opinion please. Leaving LA got a note on the phone that stated our report time the following day had changed by 15 minutes. Moved up. When in the limo I made the comment...must be due to the construction. Cap pops up and says, no it was me, they don't give us enough time to get picked up in town and get us to the airport in time. I guess he has the prerogative to do that. But, I was a bit surprised he didn't caucus with me at least to give an opportunity to object. I think that is a foul. Sad thing is I would have said sure no worries. As a soon to be Cap, I would never do anything like that without checking in with the FO. First time that's happened in 18 years. I'm I over the top???

Incoming!!

I'm not responsible for scheduling. I am responsible for safety. My preference is to take the company scheduled pick up and then block out when I'm ready to go after doing all of the required necessities in a safe, non rushed manner. If I get the ACARs message tell them why. If I get a phone call (happened once) tell them why.

Your right, that was a total lack of courtesy on his part. Not a bad idea to get there with time to spare but he should have asked your opinion.

Just DH’d on a flight out of LA. CA got on the PA for welcome and said they were late from the hotel because their town car pickup in Redondo was late and there was traffic on Sepulveda. Thought that was an odd way to start, but whatever.

I’d expect a courtesy call from the CA if they were thinking of changing pick up (or had) instead of relying upon spurious messaging from skeds

Exactly. There are too many other implications to changing a time, to include,

- pairings schedulers learn by negative feedback when flight blocks out late. no reports, IOR, suggestion box inputs do anything. Only if a flight is late do they care and only then is the problem looked into and fixed

- FAR 117. So when has the FDP started? Does it get adjusted? Who does it? When you’re deep into an FDP and they ask you to extend do you have an accurate CCO? you’ve also shortened the rest period with similar possible problems

- contractual implications

And for all of the above the FO may have different restrictions, circumstances, requirements than the CA. IOW, just leave it alone. And it the FO can also say no thanks I’ll be there at the scheduled time via taxi.

Why is that odd? People like to hear explanations and can understand why they are late now. Rather them not think it was the crew's fault.

Union just put out something about NOT changing times, flight planning on the ride to the airport, etc.
If there's not enough time (in your opinion) PDR it.
I like when captains ask me on the ride to the airport, did you look at the flight plan, you OK with the fuel, etc...
Me: I haven't looked yet. I'm not on "duty"...

I'd be in favor of 60-minute show times, instead of the current 45, but I wouldn't support crews routinely changing their pickup times and certainly not without discussing it first. I like to have the extra minutes to handle any issues that come up and have time for a cup of coffee when everything runs smoothly.

Does it? FDP starts at show-time as long as the transportation to the airport is local in nature. If you just change the pickup time, and not the show time, I don't think that the FDP or rest period is changed.

OK. Thanks

Been a Captain a very long time.

On 1st item, it’s my opinion the passengers probably do not need an explanation about why we were late. What they need is prepared pilots. Now if the delay is due to maintenance or something safety related then maybe an explanation will help and even be required. The traffic, crying children, fights with significant other probably should be left out.

On 2nd item, I would not nor have ever unilaterally changed the pickup time without crew agreement (of course then it would not be unilateral). Additionally I have never mandated a change in the traditional rest breaks either. That captain thought he or she was being in command and in reality it’s something else.

I go to work when the original pairing indicates. The capt can go when he or she wants. I will meet them at the jet.

"Note on the phone?". Guess he tried to call but no answer..?
Over the top? Maybe... What did he say when you discussed your feelings with him?

Edit; hold on. You said "report time".. Did you mean report time or limo pick up time?

Fixed it for you.

Lol, if it's a domestic flight, you'll be waiting a long time for me.

Love it, not interested Capt., maybe when we get to the plane, just need a few more minutes on my FB.

Ha me too!!!

I would leave the show/report times alone as well as the limo pick up times unless both crew members decide jointly without anyone pressuring the other crew member. If the CA wants to get to the airport earlier than he/she needs to do that for himself and do not presume it's OK with your FO. CRM and common courtesy are just as important as respecting the association's guidance on show/report times.

I do think the 45 minutes is a bit compressed, but as a technique I do check the fuel the release on the van ride because it helps take the pressure off of me. The van ride is usually quiet and as long as I have a decent connection I try and get my info squared away. I get it, we're not on duty on the van ride, but it's a way to get ahead of the game and help your other crewmember with the decision-making so that you can absorb traffic delays and crowds at the airport so that you won't feel rushed. As a bonus, if I get the release squared away early, now I got time to grab a coffee, etc and get to the gate in a leisurely pace.

I do think the company likes the 45 minute shows because it means they get to use you for another 15 minutes on the back side......

I use the scheduled pickup.
I go to 'work' when I get to 'work' not before.
I do my preflight in a safe workman like fashion without rushing.
If we go on time that's great. If we are late, we are late.

If I get a phone call I just ask them what they would like for me to leave out.

If they ever suggest that I start at the hotel or on the van ride I will submit an fsap.

I always download the flight plan and release well ahead of time so I’m not rushed later, I usually check the WSI and load my Jeep’s at hotel also, I don’t give a rip if the FO does it early or not. I just figure we want to get paid like professionals, maybe we should put in some effort and act like it. My job is to do everything in my power to get the aircraft off Safe Comfortable and On Time. The I’m not gonna do sh$t for this place attitude is pretty immature and unprofessional IMHO. It’s a pretty great job, and pressing 3 buttons on your IPad a little early isn’t that great a sacrifice. Love seeing the attitudes of the new guys coming in who really want to make this place great.

^^^^
Plus one.

^^^^plus two

I haven't flown with anyone who doesn't look at it ahead of time, on the long layovers.

There are some macho keyboard commandos here who like to beat their chest. I suspect reality differs.

Especially for FO's who we have overloaded since the merger, and the union seems to be silent on that , as well as the unreasonable 45 minute show..... There's no money in it I guess.

As for the OP who claims to soon be a captain.... it sounds like his captain made an attempt to contact him, and made a decision he felt best for safety and timeliness. If the OP got his feelings hurt and didn't try to talk it out with his captain later, but came on a public forum for support..... he doesn't understand leadership and is going to have a hard time when he get's to be the arsehole in the left seat.

Unless I want to go get food or coffee and the lines are long I never feel rushed with the 45 min show. When already at the airport I usually review the paperwork about 45-60 minuets prior to push while enjoying a cup of coffee, show up at the plane 30 prior to push, preflight, load the box, and still be ready to push 10-15 early. I don’t rush, but I dont waste time either. Also, as a f/o I don’t have to brief the flight attendants so that cuts down on my time requirements. Downloading the paperwork, review, preflight, load the box, and push is easily done within 30 minutes without rushing unless you’re new to the plane. If other guys want to start the process earlier and that is what works for them, I say stick with what you find works best for you.

Captains should not be changing pickup times period... if they feel like they need more time go through the union to fix it... not arbitrarily one trip at a time.

^^^
This is the real issue.

If the pickup time doesn’t work then file a PDR and let the union know. If it impacts safety also file a FSAP.

As far as the company is concerned it’s not a problem if the flight departs on time—-even if its internal processes are deficient and the employees are “making it work.”

I don’t have an issue with downloading the stuff at the hotel and taking a look at it. Sometimes if there is a late flt or a flow time it can save going to the airport and sitting for hours. As long as the company does not mandate it I will do what is comfortable for me. I do have an issue with changing pickup times with no input. As was said, get the union in on it to fix systemwide if indeed it is a safety issue.

That's a very nice thing to do. However, I must not be that motivated.

I do not flight plan until I'm paid. I do not look at the flight plan in the van. The company is counting on us working on our own time so they can have a longer duty day without paying for it. If we leave late because of it, when enough reports come in about inadequate report times, then it will change back to what it was.

I am not on duty in the van, I am not being paid, FAR 117 has not started, I should not be doing duty not on the clock.

Sorry, but that is the way I am. We will also flight plan together, when we report for duty. Not go to the plane and skip flight planning. Yes, the company is skating on this, intentionally--and they know it.

Dave, I believe you are on the mighty 777, would you feel differently if on sweet Fifi going from msn to ord instead of hkg Sfo? I totally see the need to sit down and really go over things for a 12 hour flight, but on a short flight things can be done faster and not miss anything. Just a thought. When I flew intl we had a 2.5 hour show. Too much imho, we were usually done after 30-45 minutes so we sat around the rest of time and spread rumors or dove into the catering.

Back to the Original Question
 

Big Foul. More importantly, an unacceptable breach of CRM, capt's authority and any sort of basic professional courtesy. Period, end of discussion. We do not have any sort of sufficient (read safe) visibility into the entire operation to make unilateral decisions like this for all the reasons mentioned. I'm not advocating passivity, just awareness. The 45 minute report will never change if this continues.

The ideas about when and how flight planning is done is an excellent discussion which, in my opinion, is not relevant here.

I wouldn’t have shown for earlier report time unless you wanted to go earlier... that would have solved it. Unless the crew desk calls you directly it’s not official change to pickup time.

Had a ca do that **** to me as well! ****ed me off to no end. Completely agree with you. Total disregard.....

What is the pay difference of flight planning early versus in the 45 minute report time. I thought we were on per diem and rigs on layovers and flight time at brake release. Am I missing a pay that only starts at 45 minutes before departure?

As far as I know, there is no pay for duty, or report time, but I am, in general, paid to be available for work, particularly if you are on reserve. But, Why in the world would I do that work for free? I'll start at the appointed time for me to work.

Preparation time, looking at the flight plan, is all included in the basic pay, in my opinion.

Everyone needs to remember, these are the good times. When, not if, things change, for the worse and management is looking to cut pay and benefits, you will see exactly how much management values your extra initiative, meaning, not much.

One of the dangers here is, there are things in the contract that are new and now required based on past practice. If the company can point to 80% of the pilot population doing flight planning on the hotel van--which is tracked on the iPads, they can cite past practice, and the next contract might require a 15 min show time. Now, you don't get that duty day extension pay at the end of the day....

Yes, I'm on the 777. But alas, my seniority sucks. I'm flying mostly domestic, but that is besides the point. No HKG for me!

Short flights? No, I still feel it's important to work only when paid to work. Back in the day, Shuttle, we flight planned 5 legs a day in the morning. But we both looked at it, and did it together, not in your room even before the van. In fact, I would say, it's almost more important to do it together at show time on narrow body, because you are flying with new hires, and guys with much less experience, and lots more can happen. Thunderstorms over ORD? What a mess, that taxes anyone.

Don't underestimate the importance of eating a crew meal!

I'm not opposed to the shorter report times, just understand, it will lead to a few late departures, I don't want to make up for stuff that management won't pay for, hence working for free. If they really want the on time departures, then they have to pay the cost of doing that business.

Or 95% volunteering for SRM or VDO. When push comes to shove that will be a status quo item to the court.

You may not be aware the majority of the airline doesn’t get anything for extension of the duty day. It’s only paid for international flights.

Yes, actually I am aware. Another thing that needs to be fixed in this contract. Good catch.

Hopefully no one is extending on domestic multi leg days. We refused the other day and capt told me the crew desk was baffled...their plan depended on us extending. Oh well.

Dave I see your point about looking at the flight plans at the hotel. I understand both viewpoints, and if a capt told me he wasn’t going to look at till we got the airport, I have no heartache with that. I would probably still look at it just so I know the day has in store for me.

Another worthless 2 cents of entertainment . . .

To the OP . . . I'm a new captain myself and stuff like what your captain pulled is why I'm a captain. Absolutely he should have had a conversation with you.

In general on this thread . . .

Legacy UAL ingrained the concept of not doing extra because the company was putting the screws to us so we should only reciprocate, but our new CEO is wholly different. We now work for a company that tries to do the "right thing". The 45 minute report is a bad hold back of a previous LCAL "efficiency" issue, but I earn close to $300k now and I will review a flight plan in the van whilst telling my union that this needs to be resolved. If or when the company tries to put the screws to me again I will stop reviewing the FPF in the van, but until such time I will give this NEW United 110% because I believe we CAN be better and we finally have management that is willing to work WITH us and not against us so for that reason I am willing to go the extra mile.


Like I said, if times change I will adapt, but today that's how I feel.

Not trying to pick a legacy fight. The idea of meeting as a crew to brief a domestic leg was never practiced at any airline I have ever worked. Is this just a LUAL culture deal where that is just the way things were done? The crews at Delta, American, Southwest...... just meet at the plane and go from there. Just trying to figure out what needs to be done in a weather room for a leg from EWR-BOS that can’t be done at the plane. If you’re flying EWR-PVG up over the pole then obviously that’s a little more involved. Not poking fun at either side. I’m actually curious since that’s something that we don’t do in IAH.

Ewr is also the odd man out here. We generally meet at the plane. The same leg distance lax-sfo or reverse would almost always meet in the briefing room. I like getting to the airplane as soon as I can so I can get the ball rolling on handling the little nuisance items like cabin temp and flight attendant inspection write ups.