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Originally Posted by mmm123
(Post 2799851)
Last email I got said the lec's had been briefed and call them, I did didn't sound like significant progress. The one before that showed the areas still open, yes the bigger stuff. It was supposed to be done the end of 2018 if I remember and many on here seemed to think it would be done. April 9th I don't see it.
Pick up all you want at what % you would like, I just think I would rather start letting them know how we feel. But hey maybe that's just how I feel. Since you seem to indicate there is progress do you have an official email or posting you can quote? As for expecting a new contract on the amenable date, that was unrealistic expectations - IIRC, hinted at by both the union and the company. I can't think of any airline contract since 9/11 that was done on the amenable date. If anyone can cite such a case, I'm all ears. Negotiations for full contracts tend to run a couple of years beyond the amenable date. Late 2020 is what people should be expecting on this type of thing. As for any lack of progress, that tells me that all of the light lifting is done and now the two sides are negotiating the more contentious issues. As far as I know, that's always been the pattern for full blown contract negotiations. You're not happy. I get it. I also get that oldmako is never happy. |
Originally Posted by oldmako
(Post 2799948)
The current contract is loaded with bogus loopholes and concessionary gimmies. None of which were necessary and all of which were agreed to just to get a deal done in exchange for an acceptable hourly rate. We were negotiating in extremis. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to plug the loopholes when the opportunities arrive. Oh wait, one already did. We gave Smisek a pile of money while he trashed the airline simply to stop the Blue vs Black whip-sawing. Now, SK is trying to poop-chute your contract with more RJ flying and guys are willing to play nice as they speculate on their PS check 6 months in advance.
Are you part of the NC - is that how you know that SK is pushing for more RJ flying? Along with that, are you indicating that the union is going to cave and loosen scope in spite of having direction from the line that we won't bend on scope? Further, you seem to be stating that we'll accept a new contract that loosens scope. I've read many of your predictions over the years, some correct, some way off. I'll go out on a limb and speculate that this post of yours will fall in the latter category. |
Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2800295)
Last point first. Like everyone else here, I have zero information on how negotiations are proceeding. Those that know details aren't talking.
As for expecting a new contract on the amenable date, that was unrealistic expectations - IIRC, hinted at by both the union and the company. I can't think of any airline contract since 9/11 that was done on the amenable date. If anyone can cite such a case, I'm all ears. Negotiations for full contracts tend to run a couple of years beyond the amenable date. Late 2020 is what people should be expecting on this type of thing. As for any lack of progress, that tells me that all of the light lifting is done and now the two sides are negotiating the more contentious issues. As far as I know, that's always been the pattern for full blown contract negotiations. You're not happy. I get it. I also get that oldmako is never happy. If you have zero info you must not read your emails. As far as not happy, sorry you have the wrong guy, I am happy most of the time. My original comments had nothing to do with happy or not they had to do with not sending the company a message. Do what you want. |
Originally Posted by mmm123
(Post 2800347)
Most people I have heard from on the line seemed to think it would it would happen early I guess we don't hang with the same folks.
Originally Posted by mmm123
(Post 2800347)
If you have zero info you must not read your emails.
Originally Posted by mmm123
(Post 2800347)
My original comments had nothing to do with happy or not they had to do with not sending the company a message. Do what you want.
Edit: I wasted some time going through my emails on this subject. The last one I found was dated March 7 and shows exactly what I expected - normal progress on negotiations. |
Originally Posted by mmm123
(Post 2800347)
Most people I have heard from on the line seemed to think it would it would happen early I guess we don't hang with the same folks.
If you have zero info you must not read your emails. As far as not happy, sorry you have the wrong guy, I am happy most of the time. My original comments had nothing to do with happy or not they had to do with not sending the company a message. Do what you want. |
Originally Posted by oldmako
(Post 2799948)
I've been listening to your type of tripe for over 30 years. My point remains unchanged. Sadly, most pilots are so enamored with the fact that they have cool jobs that they willingly sell their services on the cheap. In my first decade, I was one of them. But my tenure and experiences have changed my tune. There is no chip on my shoulder, only lessons learned.
Adjusted for inflation, we are in arrears of our peers' earnings despite that fact that we no longer have a pension. That you and others feel that this is okay means nothing to me. Yes, it's a great job. That's precisely why I busted my a$$ to get it. But that doesn't mean that we should do it at a discount. Cool factor doesn't pay bills nor fund retirements. Tweaks won't cut it. Significant improvements will be a good start. The current contract is loaded with bogus loopholes and concessionary gimmies. None of which were necessary and all of which were agreed to just to get a deal done in exchange for an acceptable hourly rate. We were negotiating in extremis. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to plug the loopholes when the opportunities arrive. Oh wait, one already did. We gave Smisek a pile of money while he trashed the airline simply to stop the Blue vs Black whip-sawing. Now, SK is trying to poop-chute your contract with more RJ flying and guys are willing to play nice as they speculate on their PS check 6 months in advance. Carry on Marvins. And when we get that full retro check, I'll eat mine. Lol you want a pension again go for it I’ll take my money in a Schwab account that I can invest track the value AND ACTUALLY RECIEVE when I retire. What pan am pilots were making in 1962 adjusted for inflation has no relevance to what a competitive wage is now, business models change, nor does what Smisek or anybody else did or was paid 10 years ago, again brother let it go and live now not in some bitter past, life is good try to enjoy it. We are doing fine, the next contract will be better. |
Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2800373)
They expected a full contract to be negotiated and put to a vote shortly after the amenable date????? What kind of contract did they expect would result from a rapid negotiation?
I get a lot of emails. I don't read them all and I don't waste my time sorting through tons of chaff to find a small kernel of wheat. If there were earth-shattering information out there, it'd be posted here. It's all quiet here except for the normal complaints. :confused: Not picking up a trip that another guy's trying to drop (but will be unable to drop due to coverage) is sending the company a message? What message would I be sending the company? This pickup/drop has zero impact on the company one way or the other. It does, however, make a fellow pilot happier that he's able to drop the trip. The trips they were picking up were not being dropped by another pilot, as in potential drop, they were open flying. But like I said do what you want. Edit: I wasted some time going through my emails on this subject. The last one I found was dated March 7 and shows exactly what I expected - normal progress on negotiations. |
Originally Posted by Itsajob
(Post 2800389)
The company wanted to open early and made a bunch of talk about a seamless transition hoping to get scope relief. If we had caved on scope I’m sure those that survived the big outsourcing would have a much better hourly rate today. Once they found out that scope isn’t for sale this just turned into the standard airline 2+ year negotiation. Hopefully most of us have been through this enough times not to have expected anything to be different. I personally never met anyone who honestly expected things to be different. They may have been cautiously optimistic, but they have seen this rodeo before. This is why I pay a union. My elected representatives go beat this horse while I enjoy my life. When we get a TA, I’ll read it and then vote.
Remember that there are some going through their first contract negotiation for the tenth time. |
Originally Posted by Itsajob
(Post 2800389)
The company wanted to open early and made a bunch of talk about a seamless transition hoping to get scope relief.
The company certainly wanted scope relief, but they knew that wasn't going to happen. it was obvious. Their plan was to run the act. Just kick the can and put forth the illusion that they are bargaining in good faith. These aren't the contractural provisions you are looking for. Just another jedi mind trick to get the pilots and the public thinking that management is just a bunch of nice guys trying to do good. 30 percent of the stock price is labor stability. They want peace and quiet in the summer, thanksgiving, and Christmas holiday travel seasons. A great way to keep the peace is to "negotiate." spinning the wheels and doing nothing is still "negotiating." |
Originally Posted by baseball
(Post 2800659)
Another point to consider......The company wanted to open early so they could put forth the "perception" that they were the good guy. The benevolent, caring, kind, and considerate boy scout just helping little ole ladies across the street.
The company certainly wanted scope relief, but they knew that wasn't going to happen. it was obvious. Their plan was to run the act. Just kick the can and put forth the illusion that they are bargaining in good faith. These aren't the contractural provisions you are looking for. Just another jedi mind trick to get the pilots and the public thinking that management is just a bunch of nice guys trying to do good. 30 percent of the stock price is labor stability. They want peace and quiet in the summer, thanksgiving, and Christmas holiday travel seasons. A great way to keep the peace is to "negotiate." spinning the wheels and doing nothing is still "negotiating." What are the odds that pilots would complain that the company is shortchanging us and we want a flying unicorn for every pilot? So the TA gets voted down. Eventually we get a contract with a unicorn (that flies poorly) for every pilot. It would likely pass but there'd still be a bunch of pilots complaining about not getting supersonic unicorns that poop skittles. |
Less people commute to IAH, DEN, ORD, and IAD than SFO/EWR/LAX so you have more “in base” pilots available to pick up trips on shorter notice that are not “commutable “. We even have pilots who reside in these hub cities but hold lines in the junior hubs on the Coasts that enjoy picking up “out of base”. I see it every day. Should we ask the NC to do away with this so the bases where more pilots live in can have more open time and PP opportunities for “in base” pilots?
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Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2800676)
Well, there's also another reason for the company to take a bit of time negotiating. Let's say we got a TA in January and it had a pony for every pilot.
What are the odds that pilots would complain that the company is shortchanging us and we want a flying unicorn for every pilot? So the TA gets voted down. Eventually we get a contract with a unicorn (that flies poorly) for every pilot. It would likely pass but there'd still be a bunch of pilots complaining about not getting supersonic unicorns that poop skittles. |
It's not about getting a contract that compares to Pan Am in 1960. It's about restoring what was stolen from both sets of pilots in bankruptcy. Much of what was stolen we should have back by now. The new pilots don't have any idea what we SHOULD have.
Record profits? I want my work rules back. I want more than a lousy 3.5/day for vacation and training....and so on. I want....I want. That's right. It's all about me. |
Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2800303)
Mako, please specifically name the bogus loopholes and concessionary gimmicks.
There were numerous threads here and in particular, the union forum which spelled them all out. Guys a whole lot more erudite than me detailed the zits. But, it passed and it's now history. When was that, 7 years ago? And how far are we away from our next contract? And please, let's not forget what was going on at the time which encouraged a whole mess of the pilot group to push for a concessionary JCBA. "We'll get em next time!" The FNG's might be interested in how we got here, even though many of the older guys are not. Try a search. |
Originally Posted by Zenofzin
(Post 2800397)
Lol you want a pension again go for it I’ll take my money in a Schwab account that I can invest track the value AND ACTUALLY RECIEVE when I retire. What pan am pilots were making in 1962 adjusted for inflation has no relevance to what a competitive wage is now, business models change, nor does what Smisek or anybody else did or was paid 10 years ago, again brother let it go and live now not in some bitter past, life is good try to enjoy it. We are doing fine, the next contract will be better.
Pilots voted in a concessionary contract in order to "save the company" and "save the pension". Mr. Tilton and his buddies promised that it was off limits and safe. They then stole it as they had intended all along. We then voted for a contract which continued to keep some of those concessions in place. (Google "Frontline: Can you afford to retire?" and watch the episode-specific to us) https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front.../synopsis.html Now, if you were a young buck and had a few decades to make up for that, yes, a 401K is an excellent vehicle for playing catch up and saving for retirement. At least until Uncle Sam deems otherwise. But what if you were nearing retirement at the time and had worked here for 20 plus years? Well, you got the shaft. Your inane yarn about me being miserable and enjoying life is just more tripe and is getting old. My life is a hoot. |
Mako...check out the PP action on the Bus today. ETT alerts are going off left and right. No takers at 50 or 75% so now the trips are popping into OT at 100%. Some lucky guy just got a 2 day worth 10k.
Its gonna be a long summer...maybe I should of stayed a bunkie! |
What base is this your talking about ? Iah ?
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Out of curiosity, was the old Cal always like this on the ppu opportunities? I'm post merger, but have heard United has moved to a more Cal style staffing philosophy.
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Originally Posted by rightside02
(Post 2801754)
What base is this your talking about ? Iah ?
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Why they will drag it out
Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2800676)
Well, there's also another reason for the company to take a bit of time negotiating. Let's say we got a TA in January and it had a pony for every pilot.
What are the odds that pilots would complain that the company is shortchanging us...... How many Captains will retire this year and next? Almost 800.. Doing anything for them, including a nice “retro pay” or signing bonus buys zero good will for mgt, cause they’re soon gone. Any “lost pension reparations” for those would have the same result....for goodwill for company and ALPA. Once a pilot is retired, he is functionally silent. Less money spent on a retiring pilot is spread out to younger ones, who will more likely carry some good will with them a while. Also, there is a business cycle and we are near the top. All the boats are floating high. That’s not a good position to negotiate from for the company. Waiting another year to 18 months will likely put us out of the top of they cycle. Don’t buy that dream home/ yacht.. whatever just yet. |
Originally Posted by oldmako
(Post 2800782)
No thank you. Your previous posts snarky and inaccurate rejoinder persuaded me to skip taking the trouble.
There were numerous threads here and in particular, the union forum which spelled them all out. Guys a whole lot more erudite than me detailed the zits. But, it passed and it's now history. When was that, 7 years ago? And how far are we away from our next contract? And please, let's not forget what was going on at the time which encouraged a whole mess of the pilot group to push for a concessionary JCBA. "We'll get em next time!" The FNG's might be interested in how we got here, even though many of the older guys are not. Try a search. As for snarkiness, how do you classify your oft-used phrase 'marvin mainliner'? |
Originally Posted by BMEP100
(Post 2802144)
Doing anything for them, including a nice “retro pay” or signing bonus buys zero good will for mgt, cause they’re soon gone.
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Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2802279)
That's because you and I have disagreements on some of what you consider problematic areas of the current contract with respect to reserve rules. I've responded with my point of view on those items. I'll accept the snarky label but will disagree once again with you on the inaccuracy of my rebuttals.
As for snarkiness, how do you classify your oft-used phrase 'marvin mainliner'? Marvin is not my phrase, just one I learned about in 1999. If the shoe fits then I'll use it. |
Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2802281)
Retro pay? Signing bonus? When's the last time any airline contract saw such things? When's the last time a UAL or CAL contract had retro or a signing bonus?
Delta's last contract had retro, as did Continental's Contract '97...the second to last one. |
Originally Posted by oldmako
(Post 2802291)
There were more than just reserve rules.
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Originally Posted by JoePatroni
(Post 2802523)
Delta's last contract had retro, as did Continental's Contract '97...the second to last one.
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