You have my vote

Don’t mind the SCABS reminiscing, and you’re still a troll.

Well, Gordo was just a puppet for Brenneman and Bonderman. I'll take a Brenneman and Bonderman over 100 Gordos. Gordo not only hired/kept Fred Abbott and Debbie McCoy, but he also hired and promoted smallsack.
Gordo hired those a$$clowns and that's also his legacy.


Gordo's just a motivational speaker who was able to squeeze every ounce of blood out of Continental's labor groups. Brenneman and Bonderman could have installed Tony Robbins (motivational speaker) as CEO and the outcome would have been better because Tony Robbins is smarter than Gordo and wouldn't have spent most of his time impregnating flight attendants.

Brenneman and Bonderman were the brains behind Continental's turnaround.

You’ve obviously not been paying attention to the operational and financial performance of the airline.
#1 on time for 2017
Strong financials-maybe not as strong as SWA and DAL, but it’s trending up.-Investors didn’t like the growth plan-but it’s working. Stock has pretty much recovered in one day today from what it lost when the growth plan was announced two quarters ago.

open collar, skirt, spiked heels....you'd probably get an invitation to the earnings live show.

I see a lot of naivety in the question itself. You are believing the news media and social media for a reading on the quality of a product. Neither is a good or true source of data. Media is currently being made to sell ads and the catchier or more absurd the better. It has become pure entertainment with little basis in reality. Our product has actually gotten a lot better with a much smoother operation, less cancellations, and more diversified offering at the lower and upper end of the spectrum.

We transport 3+ million people every week to more than 60 countries and are part of an alliance that serves 98% of all countries. Our product isn't fine dining and white glove service but it isn't the worst by far. It is reliably middle of the road and indistinguishable from other legacies offerings. If you are going to believe the midwestern soccer mom on twitter who "had the worst experience ever" because she booked a 30 min connection in IAD out of a different terminal to the last flight of the night to Frankfurt... context matters. Or the person who booked economy between ORD-SEA and was offended we didn't give him the open economy plus seat for free? The airline will always be the bad guy and the media will always report on every "travesty" because it catches your attention.

Our product has issues but it is a complex operation on a scale that isn't easy to comprehend especially if you already have media bias to hate that company. Ask anyone to tell you the Dr. Dao story in its entirety... they can't. How many times was he on/off/on/off the airplane before the film started? If you can't answer that question then maybe you don't actually know what happened. Load factors continue to creep up and the average consumer just wants a "cheap flight" even if they pay ancillary costs that add up to more. Is our product getting worse or is the industry standard giving the consumer what they want?

BINGO! Couldn't agree more.

+1000 - Until industry consolidation happened airlines lost more money than they made over their entire history. Since consolidation the industry has been profitable in a way never before believed possible for airlines so much so that Warren Buffet decided to invest in the industry as a whole. UAL just posted a Year over Year increase in profitability and raised their full year earnings guidance in the face of a 40% increase in fuel cost and did so while sticking to a 5% growth strategy AND reaching their highest customer satisfaction rate since the merger.

Also, everyone posting or following this thread should realize that the OP is NOT a legacy pilot, but merely an aviation enthusiast.

Nailed it!

Gordon pulled a rabbit out of a hat. But here's the deal. Gordon had the unique ability to relate to the common man, the uneducated man, and a Harvard MBA while charming the panties off of any female in the room. He could sell an ice-box to an Eskimo, and he was smart enough to have centralized control and decentralized execution. He, with the exception of DL McCoy, put good people in charge of stuff and let them run their departments.

But, there was a dark side. In Flight Operations, McCoy gave way to Abbot. The punitive and harsh, and often personal vendetta style of discipline was without merit, and it ultimately was the reason, in my opinion that the ops group gave way to the IACP, and the IACP gave way to ALPA.

You get as much "union as you deserve." CAL deserved all the union it got.

Gordon had a very simple plan, with 4 equally important cornerstones. He got Boeing and GE on board, and having big players and institutional investors on board helps you negotiate good prices on engines and airframes.

But, there will never be another Gordon. Why? Because I am about 1.3 million light in earnings. Gordon only made money when he held a labor cost advantage. So, goodie for Gordon. He ran a good airline, and he financed it on my earnings, and my retirement. When Gordon retired I didn't get my retro-bonus check to make up for me working for sub-standard and below average wages.

There is always a place for a charismatic leader who can rally the employee groups and keep upper and middle level management all pulling together.

Oscar seems like he is doing a good job. He seems competent, honest and forthright. He also seems like he is going out and getting good people.That's really all I need from a leader.

I have left Oscar voice mails and emails over a few different issues. He has had senior vice presidents get back with me to follow up. In one case I had a suggestion as to how we could make more money on cargo. The same day, the VP of Cargo (Jars) called me back and we began a diologue as to specific routes, and airframes and time-lines for cargo close-outs. The VP of Cargo was so interested in my ideas we talked back and forth for a few weeks. I see an engaged CEO who has told his subordinates to seek new ideas and explore all options.

I think the Jury is out on Kirby. He won't be able to pull out any scope relief out of his hat. Gordon, and his successor Kellner tried furiously and feverishly to exploit and abrogate the CAL scope clause. So, I don't give Gordon that much love.....

Often we forget what really happened and we only remember what feels good or sounds good.

Gordon hired a guy named Jacques Lapointe. I think Jacques, along with allot of the other CAL dinosaurs are with Kellner at their Crystal River financial company.

The CAL concessionary contract that was thrust upon us was brought to us by Gordon. Kellner, being new on the scene got stuck with it, but the building blocks were all put in place by Gordon.

Management scared the pilots with liquidity shortfall and threats of bankruptcy. This poor cash position was a result of Jacques Lapointe being allowed to single handedly (unilaterally and without supervision) put the company in a bad cash position.

Our liabilities in the CPRP and the CARP were too high. And, the funding of those retirements was too low. The investments were all aggressive and reckless. The pilots could only observe, and had no vote on how our retirements were invested. When Jacques made a vegas style bet on our retirement he rolled snake-eyes, then he doubled down and did it again and again.

So, our concessionary contract was brought to you by Gordon. We should have been in great shape to negotiate an industry leading contract, instead, we were left to suckle upon the dried up teet once again.

Management used the scabs to great effect. Once the furloughs started, we pilots lost our voice. We lost 800 votes (MIGS), and that was countered by the SCABS. So, Gordon was in a way, responsible for the SCABS taking over the CAL MEC. Thanks for giving us Jay Panarello, the wacky CLE reps, the wacky GUM reps, and the weird and strange instructor reps. Votes were 5-4 or 7-2 when Stone/Shoe got elected. Unionism and solidarity took a 4 year holiday in the CAL MEC.

Gordon knew how to use the ALPA bureaucracy against us. He used the SCABS to great effect. So, I don't put Gordon on such a huge pedestal. At the end of the day, Gordon got paid well. This is a business, and now it's my turn to be paid well.

Just remember, a rising tide lifts all boats (even leaky ones). Let's see what the profit sharing check has to say March 2019.

Not to imply scabs be let off the hook but.....

The pilots did have a say in the investments. The CPRP invested in mortgage backed CDO's. There was an ALPA rep on the investment committee (later became IAH CPO) and not a scab...who was silent on the investment that was later written off.

Also, the R&I chairman (full term striker) that negotiated the pension freeze, did not even to attempt to require a snap back , as well as that stupid "50% 401(k) PCRA conversion, that Kellner fixed 2 weeks after the contract was signed. (Good for him). He wanted to go with the prevailing ALPA national wisdom and move everyone to a DC plan. Which was fine, but left a lot of older pilots holding a half empty bag. (That guy retired with about 80% of his A plan intact.

For a brief time there was a website showing you your A plan earnings in relation to a PBGC payout if that hypothetically happened. That site was taken down in less than a week when the R&I Chairman, and others, realized that for the vast majority of pilots it was close to a wash and not the "threat" they needed to pass a concessionary contract to save the A plan.

The fact that he was a full term striker doesn't make him any less guilty of the deceit they used to save "their" A plan at any cost.

They didn't "save" the A plan. They cut some smaller artieries to allow a slow death. It was not a wash for the Chairman and many in his seniority. As for the annuity payments, it didn't become a wash until you got into the ~ 30% first officer seniority. The lump sum grew because of falling interest rates. However, as part of a budget reconciliation in Obama's second term that allowed for another new funding calculation, the plan was so severely underfunded as to be labeled "at risk" by the IRS.

The senior pilots coalition lobbied congress, ALPA, the CAL MEC, and everyone under the sun to change the law from 60 to 65.

Then, they had the nerve to screw everyone else to save their lump sum option. We got the full court press from management, ALPA, CAL MEC, CAL MEC reps in position of trust, heck everyone.

Gee lets furlough allot of pilots on the low end, then lets change the law from 60 to 65 on the high end, then lets come up with a secret plan to hide a bunch of already over 60 pilots in the school house, then lets with the stroke of a pen transfer them back out to the line and push more and more pilots lower on the seniority list.

Holy snap your jock strap bat man.

Then, lets kill the industry with RJ's and kill the career progression of a generation of pilots. Then for good measure lets furlough some more pilots so we can pressure the union some more with scope relief and then lets call it "joint venture flying."

I've been ALPA'd enough already. ALPA in the post 911 environment did very little to hold the line. It's a shame the scabs, and the scab-lovers/sympathizers got into power in the CAL MEC. They circled the wagons and defended the things they cared about and stayed in power long enough to see their issues to fruition. By getting non-scabs on board to do their bidding, it gave their issues "perceived legitimacy." That perceived legitimacy was used to great effect in order to sway pilots on the fence. Check Airman, instructors, reps, friends of reps, etc. It was a full court press to sway votes. Management, to include Kellner, personally called pilots to influence votes.

I think that's an important point. The words "full term striker" don't mean much to me anymore. I respect the battle star. But, decisions, and decision-making once in a position of trust are more important than labels, or badges of honor earned a long time ago.

The best predictor of future performance is past performance. It's the biggest reason I respect Capt. Todd Insler. He backs it up!

Speaking of Gordon,

You guys catch his act on TV pushing for more RJ's, scope relief, and some other goofy crap on CNBC? Think he was also pushing for lowering the hiring standards...

It's the same song and dance. One trick Pony Gordo. Always looking for that labor cost advantage. He must have some stock options coming due, or his new girlfriend is looking for a higher priced condo in New York City...… Time to cash in again at our expense. Didn't he get a 40 million dollar going away present? Go away already!

That was my point, to a MAJORITY of pilots, this was not worth signing a concessionary contract over. To a SMALL minority of pilots, most of whom would spend little time working under the POS they negotiated, they didn't care what the rest of the contract said....only that they preserved as much of their A plan as they could.

The first indication was NOT firing every single Friend of Fred "test pilot" before they furloughed one guy after 9/11. Those guys did not do ONE thing that could not have been done by a line pilot EXCEPT willingly go here, there, and everywhere at the drop of a hat (sometimes sitting for days) with zero complaints.


I remember pulling into LAX and two guys in street clothes were waiting in the jetway to ferrry the airplane somewhere. When I asked them who they were, they said they were part of the test pilot department and wouldn't even make eye contact. Total BS as guys were literally being furloughed that week.


Don't even get me started about those over sixty scumbags that wormed their way back on to the seniority list at their original seniority, Leo B was one of the ring leaders.....kharma's a ****h isn't she Leo?

The largest single financial concession was freezing the A plan. The alternative would have been Ch.11 and a bankruptcy contract.

The decision not to have a snap back of the A fund, when the airline returned to profitability was political, not economic. Everyone else in ALPA was moving away from DB plans.

No one but ALPA EVER mentioned the word "bankruptcy"....no one. That was a fear balloon successfully floated to speed up the process. The guys who were negotiating were not interested in snap backs, wage restoration, coach deadhead, etc because it didn't affect the majority of those greedy DB's because they were all short timers. The most important thing for them was gettting it done BEFORE they retired and we all paid for it.

Those test pilots had seniority numbers. I agree the pilots over 60 should have been gone but I’d rather have test pilots on the list than not. Today, at the merged airline we adopted the UAL practice of having a large test pilot group that is not on the seniority list. Not sure how that happened pre merger as the UAL MEC was pretty tough. Maybe it was the bankruptcy that forced this practice? It certainly is not manpower positive (like FO instructors) yet here we are, today living with it.

They were ALL over sixty and should have been released on 9/12 before ONE active pilot was furloughed. They were not because they were special friends of Fred Abbott. There were guys who were almost eighty still on the list, that's what a joke it was at the time.

I recall at least three during the mid to late 2000’s who were not over sixty. Two I know personally and are still here. One is barely 40. I believe you that on 9/11 the makeup was over 60 and you are right, that shouldn’t have happened. It was a special club for those who didn’t want to retire at the retirement age to have one hell of a nice post career flying gig. As bad as it was, it is better than where we are today as not a single pilot has the ability to ferry planes/test fly etc at retirement due to the separation of the list. I’m sure these guys are great (I’ve met a few), have wonderful resumes etc but how we lost this flying (and continue to have no access to it) is beyond me.

It was also similar to Len Nikolai (may he also rot in hell) negotiating a completely inflated second officer pay scale as a back door retirement plan for all his buds who were about to hit sixty. All the negotiating capital they ****ed away on that got vaporized after 9/11 when they parked all the DC-10's.

I disagree. I flew with three check airman who preached it over and over. They had no connection to the union. I understand that during a check airman standards meeting management showed up and scared the instructors to death. The company said whatever they said, over and over again....they didn't stop preaching and teaching until the instructors and check airman came out singing the same song.

Try to find any press release or 10K filing from the time with the word "bankruptcy" in it....you won't. It was a completely internal fear campaign and it worked like a charm. Many check airman at the time, especially IAH based, were also premier members of the Friends of Fred club, no surprise there.

Educational narrative ... Thanks guys.

No, you won't find any "public, on the record info". But, CAL was too shrewd for that. They knew to keep everything on the down low and use their CK Airman, left seat, right seat, and Jump Seat negotiators, and flight instructors to good effect.

It was the same approach that was also used to great effect to bring about the special deals for over age 60 instructors. Everything done via relationships and relationship manipulation. Prater-Abbot-Stankovich-Sturgel. That quadrouple whammy gave us the special treatment via those relationships. No other part 121 pilot group enjoyed such special treatment. Was dumb-founded as to how LC 171 lost the group grievance on the matter and was awe-struck no other ALPA pilot groups sued or filed grievances against the CAL MEC for allowing it to happen, even Allied Pilots Association, a non ALPA union was scratching their heads as to what Abbot had achieved, but hey, no blow-back so they kept pressing.


CAL was always careful as to what to write publicly. The tell tale was always an anonymously published "Q and A". You remember those? That's what the company put out about special one off topics and how flight ops and CAL legal viewed the issue du jour. Remember that Q and A getting pulled? Why? Because the FAA published a CAL Q and A and put it on FAA letterhead and tried to make it public law with that unique interpretation. No other FSDO in the country published it, and ultimately it was rewritten and then disappeared.

Sorry to go off course....Yes, the B word was mentioned, but done so discretely and via non-official channels. They didn't want to scare the investors or the board too much. Those in the target audience who needed to be scared or intimated to vote YES were indeed scared and intimated.

It wasn’t about scaring investors, it was about doing something that would have been illegal. They knew, full well, there was not a legitimate bankruptcy threat and to say otherwise about a publicly traded company would have been against the law.

So back to the OP, after reading a bunch of posts from guys who lived it, wouldn't it be GREAT to go back to all the CAL BS? :mad: Not from this pilots perspective.

Many thanks for the education guys.

The concept of enabling front line employees to do their jobs without worrying about some BS policy is solid, unfortunately Gordo’s boy Smisek was one who crapped all over that in the name of the bottom line. The faster Smisek’s stink wears off, the better this place gets.

I'll drink to that.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...o_-i-5zDPJxASA

Actually, I'll drink to just about anything. But that's a great start.

And lest we not forget, there was a clause in the pilot's TA that said if any of the other employee groups voted down their concessionary agreement, then the pilots would not be subject to the terms of our agreement. Well the FA's were the ONLY ONES who had the balls to say NO on their contract! But yet that POS panerello (scab mec chair) squandered any leverage we had left and over rode that clause and the rest is history. NONE of those people who were involved in that contract should ever be allowed to get near another union position. EVER. Many of those that negotiated and pushed that deal were not scabs, but I maintain, they did as much or more long term damage. Wouldn't p@#$ on 'em if they were on fire. Many of those names are well known on the CAL side.

Agree 1000%. JM, TS, RM, and SP can all rot in hell too.

You forgot Bill Karnes and who's SP?

Steve P ...... Mr. “Low Hanging Fruit.”

Joe,

Since you mentioned the 10k ....
Does anyone have a copy of that thing...I remember scab captains waving it in my face... It may not have used the bankruptcy word but it was pretty specific about the "future without concessions"
All total BS posturing in my opinion... and did not sway my "NO" vote...

I admit I'm not sure what time period you are talking about, but if it was 2008 objective measures indicated bankruptcy was a possibility for CAL:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/224...ng-with-united

No we are talking 2004-05. I always consult seeking alpha for ‘objective measures’ on a company. :rolleyes: