Upgrade time to captain?
 

I looked through pages of threads but didn’t see this topic. What is the average time to upgrade to captain, and how does it vary by aircraft type and base? It is reasonable?

4 years right now.

SFO and EWR most junior domiciles, 737 and A320 most junior aircraft.

Any answer given is true for one bid and one bid only. Given current conditions it is likely to continue going down in years in the coming bids, but when the music finally stops it will likely go back to more "normal" levels, and those that make captain in 2019 or 2020 at the bottom will probably end up back in the right seat. That's how this industry works when times are good they are great, but when the economy turns watch out below because the airlines will shrink more than you think is possible.

The cycle has repeated itself at least a half dozen times since Wilbur and Orville first pinned captain wings on themselves over 100 years ago. If you're thinking about making it to the airlines in a couple of years and then wondering how long to make captain . . . don't . . . you'll only drive yourself crazy in ten years thinking about what could have been.

Sorry to play Debbie Downer, but them's the facts. What's happening today is NOT the norm in history, and won't last.

Yep. I was an early 2000 hire and flew with some captains who had less than 3 years on property.

For those in my seniority range, the upgrade time was more like 16-17 years after DOH (including two furloughs totalling about 5.5 years).

Good luck.

Gup

Not to mention the fact that if you're looking at a 40 year career today in aviation, I gotta say . . . get out now. Drones fly off of carriers and people ride on a no-driver train between terminals without a second thought, and the news is full of discussion about driverless cars. The technology exists today to negate our entire profession. It's but a matter of time before the world switches to single pilot and ultimately no pilot operations. The "Hay Day" of aviation is long past. If you're contemplating this career starting today be prepared for some end of career changes because the one thing that is constant in this career is a total lack of predictability.

Upgrade time to captain?
 

Great thoughts, thank you.

I’m retired Navy, 14 years out of the cockpit, and a freshly hired FO at SkyWest. I finished ATP-CTP last week and passed my ATP Written. I start GS next week. I’ll build currency and recency and learn the industry, and enjoy my time there for however long it lasts. It’s a good company and so far their training is excellent. But at some point I’d like to jump to the majors for the short 8 year flying career I have left before age 65 (assuming they don’t change it to 67 or beyond).

Just wondered if I’d ever get in the captain seat at a major before I retire. I get that the industry is cyclic; nobody was hiring in 2004 when I thought I might retire from the Navy right after my last flying tour and go straight to the airlines. Instead, I stayed in for another 8+ years.

I’m just grateful for the opportunity to fly again professionally this late in life.

It varies quite a bit from base to base, but I don't think it varies much between the Bus and 737 right now (not even going to try and talk about other frames, not much chance for you to hit CA beyond the Bus and Guppy anyways). Six months ago, I would not have guessed that we'd have four year upgrades (6-7 was my optimistic guess). But, those four year CAs were in our most junior base. If you wanted to be based in DEN or IAH, without going back to look at this most recent vacancy I'd hazard to say you are still looking at upwards of eight years. So, if you really want to make CA before you hit 65 you'll need to plan on living in one of our junior bases (unless you think you'd like commuting to reserve!). And you'll have to hope the economy doesn't tank too badly before you hit 65... someone should start a thread on what the recent market volatility might do to hiring!

It took 21 years and 5 days for me to hold a captain bid in Denver.

The JR 320 EWR Capt on the last award is 29! He was hired at 25 :eek:

Perhaps you should consider Spirit Or maybe Frontier. Upgrade at Spirit is below 3 years. Qol much better than Skywest.


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That little $hit! :)

I wouldn't recommend Spirit to someone without a lot of currency. 4 sims and a non AQP checkride is stacking the odds against you. The oral failure rate is 5% and then another 10% fail the checkride. When an airline is using another airlines study materials you need to reevaluate going there. A good friend went their after retiring from a flying role in the military and failed the ride. He owns it but it is a hard pill to swallow when you had a perfect record and were only going there as a currency builder.

Spirit and Frontier don’t interest me given the pay and where I want to live. I’d try for Alaska or JetBlue before those if the big majors don’t show interest.

At this point I’m just doing research for long-term plans. This is all great info and I appreciate everyone’s engagement. First I have to get through SkyWest’s training and start flying the 121 line and living the life. So baby steps. :)

The sooner you learn to embrace the suck, the easier the whole game gets. You'll initially wear a hole in the side of your scalp from scratching your head, but it will heal. The parking brake is your friend. :D

The 4 sims and no AQP is correct, however i'm not sure where you're getting the info about using another airlines study materials. That's just not how it is. Using another airlines materials, and be able to go from day 1 to release to the line in 2 months will not work. The 10% fail rate is from last year when the applicant pool was drying up and for a short period of time. You seem to be getting some old and false information.

Okay, that's funny right there.

But! But! But! We're down to 4 big airlines now with 4 smaller national ones, and there are yuge retirements coming! We can't furlough anymore, those days are gone :D

Furloughs are possible, but absent an age increase (unlikely), I don't see furloughs for most airlines, even in a recession. The financial numbers of furloughing only make sense if an airline plans on not recalling for at least 24 months. It would take a significant economic downturn to trigger furloughs.

Given how lean staffing is, furloughs can also be mitigated or even eliminated by lowering line pilots' block hours. In my mind, that's a much more palatable solution than having to furlough. Unfortunately, there are more than a few $200K+ pilots who live paycheck to paycheck and have to fly 100 credit hours/mo. Gotta pay for that mcmansion, private plane, boat, and stable of half a dozen high end European cars. I'm intentionally avoiding a discussion on the third F.

Doesn’t matter. There are guys who are always going to only talk about all the terrible things that might happen and that’s their life. They are miserable and enjoy bringing people down. Guy on the crew van last week complaining to my new hire FO that he better be prepared to be furloughed in a few years and get screwed in an SLI because he got furloughed before the merger from CAL and believes he got screwed in the SLI.

And how exactly does consolidated competition, improved fleets to allow more flexibility in deployment and massive retirements upcoming NOT mitigate the potential furlough? Anything could happen to royally screw the current airline structure up and results in furloughs, but to dismiss the positive factors we have on our side to mitigate a furlough shouldn’t be laughed off like they aren’t a big deal.

Ha. Don't be a lost decade denier. Things were as prosperous as they come just before 9/11 and the 08' recession. Us old guys are just adding some balance.

Fixed it for you, but most of those guys refer to them as their "girlfriend." It's either their white New Balance shoes, cell phone holster, huge gut, or magnetic personality that attracts all the young hard bodies. Obviously.

Must be my shoes......

How long til a new hire can hold a kush line on a widebody as an FO?

Given you have 8 years left in this career, and still in training at SkyWest, I would accept the fact that a jump to a Legacy carrier probably will not be as fast as you would hope and there is a true possibility of maybe spending some time at SkyWest.

You are probably at least 2 years out from even getting a look from Spirit. Minimums were raised again and I think back up to 3,000 TT, which means application stacks are up. I would bet you would be even longer to get a look from a Legacy. Many on here have been tolling at the regionals for years, waiting for their chance.

I can understand bases being a concern for you but you will be junior at any Legacy or LCC you go to, so not much choice there. As far as QOL, well you are junior and probably retire junior as well, so things to keep in mind...

You have your heart set on a Legacy, wish you the best. But the progression is not as easy as it might seem or have heard...

Upgrade time to captain?
 

Yep, I get that, thank you. That is sound advice and I’m prepared to wait if needed and pay my dues.

I have 3240 hours, all turbine, with 2991 PIC, 753 night, 619 actual instrument, 642 instructor in 16 years of military flying. I’m hoping that helps.

You will get on with delta or United or American within 6 months from now
And will hold left seat in any of the 3 by 2025 the latest if everything goes as plan with their hiring departments


Seriously that’s my best guess

Timing is everything!!

Pull out NOW!:D

Don’t worry about it. It won’t happen as predicted.

I was hired in the middle of a hiring boom, and told five years to captain. 4 years later we were in bankruptcy.

I interviewed then with TWA, who told me; “In five years one half the seniority list will be retired, and in 7 years 3/4 will be retired”.

Riiiight... in 10 years the entire seniority list was gone.

I didn’t take the job..couldn’t handle the “B” scale.

This is something you have no control of, just like the amount of the next profit sharing check.

About 20 years.

Motivation! Thank you, sir.

Thank you. It seems the uncertainty in this field is the only thing you can count on.

Kush likes can be held all the way to your first drug test tbh

I just jumpseated home with the guy that just got the bottom SFO Airbus CA position. He was hired in 2015, but predicts by the time he starts/finishes CA Upgrade, that'll be first quarter 2019....so approx 4 years currently.

All this really means nothing to an applicant, or even newhire, as it's always a dynamic number (2-20 years)

I’m UA. 3 yrs on property and have a 777 bid. Maybe could hold NB capt next bid if it goes as junior and accounting for retirement advancement between now and then. I say go to the legacy as it gives you more options than anyone else. You can only make so much lemonade from these part 121 lemons, but at least UA has so many different flavors offered you can definitely find one that pleases your pallete for sure.

Great advice, thanks.

Well spirit third year captain makes about three times a skywest captain. 208 plus 401k and 8% international override. You won’t make 200 plus no where third year .not at a legacy for sure maybe fedex or ups. if you were in the 30s then a legacy would offer more in the long run but given you have 8 years Spirit is one hell of a deal if they take you. Regarding training AQP in the spring so it’s not that bad. But hey whatever floats your boat sir and makes you happy. Whatever you do work on your apps as soon as you’re off training. You never know Military guys make 50% of all legacy hiring. Best wishes! Happy Holidays


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Upgrade time to captain?
 

True, but I could live on legacy FO pay if I never made CA. However, I take your point. I have much to consider.

Happy Holidays to you!