i know it sucks but I’m just going to use the extra days off with my family and do the things that 60k can’t buy. The days of feeling burnt out will return

Kind of what I’m thinking as well...

Was not displaced and going from 73 hours to 53 = kicked in the nuts.[/QUOTE]

I guess I won’t share this with a few buddies of mine who have completely lost their jobs at Virgin, BA, Emirates and Korean[/QUOTE]


Feel free to share with your buddies. It’s their companies that furloughed them and not their fellow co-workers.

That argument doesn’t work with me since was only working 9 days a month before this nonsense.

For some of us who don't have a wife or family, this is all we have.

You actually believe that it’s ok to have an A-B-C scale when pilots in 85 went on strike so we wouldn’t have a B scale? You are ok with pilots taking a pay cut to supplement your income?

I guess I won’t share this with a few buddies of mine who have completely lost their jobs at Virgin, BA, Emirates and Korean[/QUOTE]


Feel free to share with your buddies. It’s their companies that furloughed them and not their fellow co-workers.[/QUOTE]

This!

I hope all these pilots that are supporting this POS agreement also supported Bolshevik Bernie cause its kinda the same concept isn’t it?

Getting furloughed absolutely sucks and is/was hard. But so were the sacrifices and hard work that all the pilots senior to us did in getting us the contact and benefits we enjoy now. And now we want to throw it ALL away to line the pockets of our junior pilots. This is the reality of it. It sounds cold hearted, but that’s the reality of it. You then try to shame and guilt us cause we don’t want to lose any pay and benefits as well. Simply unreal!!

Like “paying their dues” at United, then selling out scope creating thousands of C scale pilots?

Never said it was perfect, but most likely better than from where you worked before.

Oh boy.....$700 while working a lot more and less days off. Sounds fair!! Get a clue!

I'm pretty sure the Jr narrowbody Capt above will be on reserve, so redo the math at 36.5 hours.

you’re holding on to tight Cougar. The pilots in 85’ went on strike to protect the JUNIOR pilots that were facing B scale. They FOUGHT for the JUNIOR pilot and faced months or years of no pay.

now you make some dumbass post about taking a pay cut to “line the pockets” of the junior pilots. If you are going to post about unionism then show some.

I don’t care if you vote no but you don’t need to be a condescending a-hole about it.

Nobody making 50% is going to be “lining their pockets”. Narrowly avoiding being homeless is a little closer to accurate. I’m not voting for anybody else’s pay cut. I’m voting for my own. What happens to you is collateral damage, and that is how you feel about us, as well. If it doesn’t work for you, vote no.....I will accept the outcome either way, I just wanted a chance to vote on this thing.

ALPA lost me at "first you start by dividing the pilot group into 1/3's"

cant have it both ways. Either you believe in a union that works to actively protect all its members, or you believe ALPA is there for collective bargaining and contract enforcement.

because it sounds like you’re upset with a (temporary) lack of equal treatment for all members (That attempts to keep all of our pilots employed), but yet you’re okay with cutting lose any dead weight in our pilot ranks, regardless of the economic environment they’ll face?

Why do you refer to it as my decision “to cut lose any dead weight?” This Shouldn’t be my (or your) decision. That’s the point - our union has seemingly put us in this unfortunate situation with this TA. We have an existing contract that has many protections and provisions that we’re haphazardly tossing in favor of a TA that’s benefiting at best 2/3 of the pilot group.

Understand 100%

WE are not cutting anybody loose...the company is. Understand that.

Representation does not entail carve outs and windfalls. A guy with a furlough letter in hand can keep the job AND keep his captain pay making the same as a middle guy while working less. That is not right and you know it.

The reason for pay protections is that displaced pilots already faced a 30% pay cut; with the TA, and no pay protection many would face an additional 30% reduction in take-home pay due to reduced hours. A cumulative 60% cut! That would certainly not be right.
The pay protections are necessary to prevent that.

It sounds like you’re relieved that this TA took your 60% pay cut and transferred it to the lower 1/3. I’ll borrow your quote as it applies to the lower 1/4 now, “that certainly would not be right.”

Well, when this TA came out I was not in favor of it. After sleeping on it for a few days, and talking to different folks, I will be voting yes.

I’d rather take this LOA than face what is potentially on the other side if this thing fails. Pick your poison, I suppose.

If I’m voting yes it is certainly to HELP the lower 1/3. Are you suggesting that this TA is hurting the lower 1/3 overall? The rest of us don’t get a raise if this passes. I’m not sure what you mean by “my 60% pay cut”; the cut in take-home pay for those displaced in the middle third will stay at 20-30% regardless if this passes or not. That was my point as to why pay protection is a necessity (obviously I’m rounding numbers).
Furlough pay remains intact at full MPG, if and when that happens, btw. For the ones who are in a hurry to leave, there are guaranteed, rolling 3-month COLAs.
I do understand the 50% hourly cut is a tough pill to swallow for those toward the top of the lower 1/3, but I think it’s better than the high risk of getting furloughed for possibly years, with none of these options available.

I get why this philosophy is worth considering… Obviously we don’t want to move forward thinking that any bad thing that happens to us is the fault of the union. That said, the company is offering to spread the remaining flying, unevenly and favoring seniority, throughout the entire Pilot group, rather than giving it all to the top half or 2/3rds (depending on demand and future furloughs) of our group. So if we vote no, we are voting that we would rather furlough, than share the pain. I don’t think that is wrong inherently, but I do think that we should be honest about the fact that the choice is in our hands. If you want to play the “we don’t do _____ , someone else does it”… Then the company doesn’t furlough pilots, economic recessions do, right? The company is responsible for deciding how to staff an airline given suppressed demand. In this situation, they have passed that decision making onto us. Really tough and unprecedented choice, I fully get it. But instead of shying away from the choice that we have, we need to own it. How would you feel if Scott Kirby said, “ I didnt furlough you, Covid did?“

to me the union is more than simple representation. However, I think that is an idealogical position, and I respect that other people see the union having a smaller role of collective-bargaining and subsequent contract enforcement. I like the idea of more leadership and career stewardship. That is just my opinion

although I do not have a furlough letter, I am a captain in the bottom third. As long as we are in super suppressed demand, I will be making a good bit less as a halftime captain, than I would as a full-time FO. I am fortunate that a furlough would not affect me anywhere near as bad as others, but as I have stated, I spent my last year flying with new hires. There are so many examples of great people who have done everything right (Put money in savings for unforeseen events, chosen to live Near a support network, etc.) and yet will still face incredible hardship if they get furloughed.

I definitely understand that some people are luckier than others with his agreement, but I think you could find those individuals in every tier . My displaced widebody captain bud who already has a good retirement fund, who faced 18 days a month of the narrowbody grind, now gets to stay on his jet and work even less than before.. let me tell you, he would be STOKED. The important thing I think, is to look at this TA as a whole and see if it attempted to favor seniority, and I largely believe it did. It is far from perfect, but don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good. The windfalls you speak of, are an incredibly small percentage of our pilots. The obvious beneficiaries are potential furloughs, that is certain. That said, I personally believe that if we zoom out and look at the health of our airline five years from now, rather than each of our take-home pay next April, I think this is our best bet. time will tell

Sounds like a good deal, doesn't it? Unless a vaccine comes out, we suddenly get back close to normal, and someone just picked up and moved his family to the other side of the country for a new job planning his life around what's written in the UPA(bypass rights), then the TA ends early and United makes him come back at the end of his current 3-month COLA.

I get it, it's unlikely, but we all need to think about worst-case scenario. The COLA section doesn't seem like it was well thought out, especially since the executive summary doesn't seem to match the TA language.

bingo

filler

Bingo, well said. Gimme that VF w/ bypass because I already have things lined up after riding this carousel w/ a letter the last few weeks. And I don't intend on riding it for another 6-9 months.

Serious question not trying to start anything but why isn’t the top union officials taking part of this as well? They still get their 90 something hour pay. Is it written somewhere in the bylaws or part of the job. Seems like a good show of leadership and unity is that if we all have to eat this S sandwich those drafting and voting on it should have to partake as well.

to me it seems a little disingenuous asking us line puke to partake but they will have none. Is this just the nature of the beast? Is this normal?

thanks I’ll hand up and listen..

Your reply was a lot more civil than what I had intended to write. I’ll let this stand as the appropriate response.

I respect that. I was working more than 9 days a month and I have little kids at home and a wife that works. It works for me, it doesn’t work for you. I’m likely joining your no vote but I’m also bracing for the outcome of this passing and if I have to live with it then atleast I’ll know what the positives will be despite all the negatives that will come with it.

I’ll bite....the MEC probably isn’t taking a cut because they are working just as much as they always do...probably more than usual these days. Any of us line pilots who fly as much as we “usually” do won’t take a pay cut either. Because it’s not a pay RATE cut, it’s a pay VOLUME cut. The end result is the same, but that should explain why the MEC isn’t taking a cut. Do we really want the MEC to do a lesser portion of their normal duties?!

I’m sure the vocal NO voters would like that, but I still think that explains why the MEC isn’t taking a cut.

I don’t have a dog in this fight other than being a dues paying ALPA member but why didn’t they do the 50hr long term leaves on a voluntary basis. Let the company decide how many in each seat and base they want and then when they are bid for you calculate the savings and see how many furloughs it mitigates. Guys that sign up get to voluntarily take a bunch of time off and get paid 50hrs/mo to do it. Anyone that doesn’t do it gets to keep their full pay. At that point hopefully enough savings adds up to mitigating all furloughs.

Southwest did this, Spirit did this, and I think AA but I’m not sure.

This United deal seems concessionary and snap back provisions never seem to play out like they’re supposed to.

Been furloughed before but outside looking in I think there is a better solution than this TA

Wow.

The self entitlement on full display here is nothing short of staggering.

If you're a post SLI hire, and you didn't prepare for a furlough, that's on you. You're not entitled to a GD damn thing and the senior pilots who've spent most of their careers recovering from their own furloughs, pension losses, esop, bankruptcies, etc while also providing for their own families don't owe you a GD thing... But for the past decade have provided a contract for you with industry leading pay, opportunity, and most notably new hire pay and benefits. Plenty of history out there if you were willing to absorb it and plan ahead.

Don't come back with "well this is unprecedented." It's always unprecedented. Every down turn is always worse than the one prior. It's your turn in the barrel... suck it up and take it like a professional. In 10-15 years, after we've recovered, and you've been back, and we go through this boom bust cycle again you can yell at all the young kids about how hard you had it and it's their turn but to expect those above you to make unprecedented sacrifice because you weren't ready, and to then call them greedy, is the ultimate display of hypocrisy.

Signed,
A junior group furloughee

Thousands upon thousands of other pilots would also like the option to work as much as they always do. With a no vote, at least there would be thousands that do have that option (an option afforded to them by seniority, a basic tenet of every CBA).

Pipe

that’s not really a response to what I said.....but ok

other COLAs are still available. Yes, they have to be approved, like they always have.
Let me ask you this, have you thought about your fellow pilots who don’t have things lined up, before worrying about “things recovering” too quickly?

Best..............post..............ever!!

just out of curiosity, why is (10%) hardship for the senior guys unwarranted… But for the junior group (which contains a lot of guys and gals in their 40s and 50s, not millennials), divorce, uprooting your family, etc a right of passage? Why do you feel that the senior group should not suck it up and just figure out their 10% pay cut? when does one earn the right to feel entitled to what they have VS embrace the suck? 50% seniority? 30%?

There were undesirable, but well paying flying opportunities post 9/11 and in the housing crisis recession. I don’t really see that happening in the travel industry during this recession.

if you view junior pilots on any seniority list as simply job protection for senior pilots, I think then maybe you have a different definition of unionism than most people

thats makes sense but shouldn’t they have a rate cut as well? For the collective good? I realize that there are probably only like 40-45 people but shouldn’t they have to endure some of this as well? Isn’t that only right? not saying it has to be the same but 10 hours less or something?

also would this 95 hr/month union rate be found in the by laws for their duration of seat I’m guessing.

I appreciate the response.