my goal in life is to never be the person you just described. Me me me is a bad way to go through life.

Counterpoint:

I am a pre-merger hire and, because of the last decade, I have been able to prepare for the bad times. I’m in a great position to have my pay reduced in order to prevent outright devastation for those junior on our list.

I’m voting yes.

It's called leading by example. Even Kirby gets it.

Leadership is hard

got an issue??? Grab a tissue. Lesson learned... 40+ years in the industry hope for the best... prepare for the worst. Doesn’t make a difference the industry one works for. You kicked yourself in the nuts.. not UAL.

I would also add, just because that's the way it's been isn't a great argument for that's the way it has to be.

In order...

That's not for you to decide. You don't get moral credit for forcing someone to support others nor do you get to dictate whats a hardship. Some of the more senior guys lost upwards of $3-5 MILLION on pension and stock (when that was their only investment vehicle) only to then be saddled with 10 years of crap pay and stagnation all the while being forced to scramble to rebuild their nest eggs so that they may have something to retire with, while supporting their own families.

It's not a right of passage, it's a well documented trend in the history of this industry. We treat it as a right of passage for those that survive it, but if you didn't prepare that's no one else's fault but your own.

Why don't you tally up everything they've lost throughout their career. It's already in the millions. I'm not so greedy and unprepared as to then ask them for more to save me. That's just pure unadulterated selfishness.

This right here is the crux of your problem. Entitlement.

There are opportunities outside of flying if you're willing to look. I know several furloughs who never came back after their turn in the barrel. One started a bar with his brother that took off, another took a real estate course, and built himself a freakin' empire of rental properties in the post 2008 bust.

Junior pilots are just that, junior. No one is any better or worse because of their date of hire. We're all pilots on the same seniority list, and there is a natural order to life on the list. Ask them, especially those who've played the furlough game... how many of them stomped their feet and threw a temper tantrum demanding that the senior guys take a pay cut for them? If they're willing, great. It's a noble cause, if they're not then that's also ok, but you don't get to demand anything from them or bully them for not paying your bills.

And that's a noble cause. Congrats, seriously.

How would you feel if there was no TA and some junior pilot just demanded you fork over some money to keep him on the list and threatened to put you on a psudeo-SCAB list if you didn't? Because that's happening.

Fair enough, and I don't disagree with your other post either. However, let's not forget the 5 year tack-on the older guys got to recoup and keep working. What did that do to the guys who were furloughed?

If you think the only "me" generation are the millennials, you'd be mistaken.

Thanks Major.

We should ALL have prepared for this eventuality during the last "good" decade". I would hope that EVERYONE would have their individual affairs in order.

If there was no TA, and a junior pilot demanded I (we) save their job, I’d chalk that up to lashing out in times of stress. I get it.

The post you’re referencing was in poor taste and that pilot needs to tone it down. Social media makes it easier for thoughts in your head to be heard, and sometimes they shouldn’t be. Venting like he did is better said while having beers with friends.

VALID (for emphasis) point.


100% agree on all counts. We need more civil discourse right now not less.

Grumble, I think you are allowing your narrative on “entitlement” to color your interpretation of what I’m actually saying.

entitlement is simply the belief an individual has that they deserve some thing. If they do deserve it, then their sense of entitlement is correct… like a senior pilot being entitled to full mpg in your view

All I am asking you is where you draw the line. What philosophy or metrics do you use to decide who is deserving? One could argue many of the double furloughees came from a generation that should’ve known pensions should not be counted on...

The problem with you thinking you understand who deserves what and therefore has a correct sense of entitlement, is that there are so many people with different circumstances and different life experiences smattered throughout our seniority ranks. It is hard to categorically say that someone who is more senior is more deserving and thus entitled to keep their full pay. Do you understand what I’m getting at?

Keep United Weird!

This is why we have a contract, with provisions in it to cover situations like this, that was not negotiated under duress or stress. Trying to tweak it on a compressed timeline, regardless of how well-intentioned it is, is like pulling a loose strand out of a wool sweater. Having a contract keeps us from trying to define "deserving" which plays right into the hands of the company.

^THIS^
Motch

Guys.. the airline wants to grab during competition down time. This TA does a lot of things for a lot of people, and positions the company to be aggressive, which benefits everyone.
I know, I’ll get an earful now about BK, evil plans etc, all valid; but they are taking all 787 orders and will flying all of them, 737 will be quite busy and they’re taking 777 out of storage. Cargo prices staying high as well.
Voting yes on many fronts.
If it doesn’t work out, back to UPA (but bk etc... got your point already).

can one assume you were a no vote on the furlough fund then?

Nope, I gladly voted yes to that and was willing to give up that share of my pay. I also don't threaten or hold it against anyone that voted no. That's not to say I don't have my opinions on the matter or their reasoning but I certainly would never tell someone I'm entitled to their money.

I said that in my 30s... now with kids in college and on airline number 5... it’s all about trying to get to retirement. When you’re at the end game and you have limited time to make up for past airline bankruptcies, furloughs, concessions, snap backs that never occurred, pensions lost, and other setbacks, your perspective changes.

Can you repeat that for all the “Yes” voters please?

Great...will we see your name on the VF list?

Never said I wasn’t prepared jackoff. Have a military pension and wife makes mid 6 figures working on Wall Street. It’s the principle, but am very prepared for this place to close the doors if it comes down to it. You just don’t get it.

No, I’m not FI yet.

Great so you’re voting yes to make this a permanent part time job because you don’t need the full time work.

Got it.

pay attention if you’re gonna be a d*kk.....130shadow is probably the most vocal NO voter on this forum.

Mid 6 figures as in 500K? WTF are you working here for? Is it the energy bars?

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Seriously? If his wife was independently wealthy he’s not deserving of a job here? By your metrics, who then is worthy of a job here?

Easy there Scrappy-Doo. Nobody said anything about "deserve". I was just questioning his sanity, not his value as a human being. BTW I love your stores.

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My wager is that he rightfully realizes a family can't retire to their desired comfort level unless a family has lots of nuts stored in the tree.

UPS pilots will retire with 5 to 6 million dollars. Their spouses don't need to work.

UAL pilots will NOT retire with a sizeable pension, therefore their spouses often do work outside the home to supplement both earnings and retirement.

But the way I read it was his wife likely makes between 140 and 160K. I could be wrong though, not that it matters. Heck, I hope she's pulling in 800K a year.

If its Wall Street mid six figures is in fact 400-600K. On Wall Street that is actually lower end of compensation.
If I had to guess she is in legal or research departments. Traders and risk management would be in the seven figure area for compensation.

Does she have an available sister?

IPO attorney for JPM.

the sad part is that 500K is not horrible but also not all that much living in Manhattan with a family.

Actually we do fine, and the rub is not how this affects me financially. It’s the fact that this AIP will set us back another 10 years. It’s the principle of having pilots subsidize furloughs on the gamble of what SK thinks. Furloughs sucks and I don’t wish it on anybody. But we allowing management to put the responsibility on us to pay for those furloughs.

wisdom in these words!