Let me make one thing clear..I trust the union as much as I trust the company. That being written, I will post my opinion of this "possible" Cap TA because JUST LIKE this Furlough Mitigation TA that has now been renamed (LOL?!).. the rumors of dividing us up into 3 groups was dead on.
All the people on this board, the other boards and the FB Groups that kept writing "Don't believe the rumors" were either union mouth pieces OR pilots who have not learned from the past.
Of Course.. totally agree. That is not even up for discussion.
Notice the BOLD-
THIS is exactly one of the things (and I have numerous) that is concerning about this TA. The company holds the purse strings AND is able to manipulate the numbers.
IF the Union was worried about this, and their solution is to have a Pay CAP.. then why wouldn't you put it in the TA from the beginning.. unless of course it would telegraph a major shortcoming that they are trying to hide.
Keep in mind, the union.. OUR union.. has hidden things in the TA's before. Biggest one is 5-J-1-h!

It's one thing to be lied and misled from the company. Their goal has been, and will always be.. get the most out of labor with the least possible cost. And we are no different if we hire someone to work in our house, fix our car, etc.. I get it.
But for our union to mislead us and lie to us is unacceptable.

Motch

 

Motch,

this is how I see it. I don’t think this TA will last past next summer. for two reasons. 1) we will be 70% or above by next summer or we will be right where we are now. If we are right where we are now the Company will be in full panic and will furlough past the 2007 number, and go bankrupt voiding this TA.

so here’s the deal I have the ability to take less pay until next June or earlier. This in turn will help my fellow pilots put food on their table and take care of their kids. If this was permanent I would be a NO, but this is me helping my friends make it through a tough time. This is not some socialist program just me helping out my friends in their time of need.

there’s nothing anyone can say to sway my vote and I’m not trying to sway anyone else’s. I just choose to look at the facts and vote for what is right for me.

 

So what you're saying is that it's ok for the middle third to take the biggest hit from this TA but it's not ok for the middle third to try and make it up (IF that is even possible)?!

Keep in mind, the middle third has a large portion of 756 pilots. They have seen the 764 which paid WideBody Pay parked.
Pay cut between 10-20% Then many of them went from lineholders to reserve.. another 10% paycut.
Then (IF this abortion of a TA passes) they will take a further 20-30% cut.

As far as the top of the food chain is concerned... If memory serves me right, those in the single digit seniority range are also those closest to retirement.. which are also the pilots who had their Pensions stolen or frozen by past management. So now THEY can't try and at least get some of the scraps of what's left, if THEY only have less than 5-10 yrs left?


Something you wrote IS interesting. You believe that the lower third is being "decimated" by this TA.
Interesting because in reality, the lower third is for all intensive purposes - either furloughed or possible going to be furloughed (If we go another 1000 deep from the 2850). So for the 2850.. this is a 50% pay raise! See what I did there-

ALSO, keep in mind that we currently a have provision within our contract that precludes this TA.
20-Q-8
The company COULD just offer SRL's for the foreseeable future. Sure, maybe we would need to negoaite an LOA whereby if enough pilots don't take them they force them in reverse seniority order. But then at least pilots would be getting 50hrs and our contract would be upheld.
AND this pilot group would not have to be the ones who decide if the lower part gets furloughed AND this pilot group would not be funding this mess.

The fact that we are now dealing with ANOTHER rumor that continues to divide this pilot group is unheard of!
WTF happened?!

Motch

 

Well, you can easily remove the period and flip that statement on its head: The Union gets the Management that IT deserves. I can almost hear Marx's giddiness from here as the quintessence of his ideology--dialectical materialism--plays out over and over again, most notably perhaps right here in our own back yard.

Labor movements are popular because they enable workers to secure higher wages for their labor than a free market would allow. However, as we all know from economics, there is no such thing as a free lunch--this is no different. The largess enjoyed by Legacy airline pilots comes directly from the pockets of "lower" tiered pilots, the traveling public, and, of course, the 'taxpayer'. There is no way around this.

So yes, who on earth would not want to be paid more than they are worth? That's the true danger of these policies at scale. We can survive them when the exist in isolated pockets within a massive ecosystem of productivity, but at scale they WILL ultimately destroy the economy. After all, who would turn down "free" money? No one, and obviously not me. So yes, am I a hypocrite in my own camp? Absolutely. But at the very least I won't aim to hide behind false interpretations of this ideology. And yes, I totally, agree, without the Union, this job would not provide nearly what it does now. But then, if that were the case, a lot fewer people would be interested in trying to become pilots in the first place. So, while in this instance, as a fellow pilot and ALPA member, I go along to get along for the time being, I am under no illusions about the reality of what is happening here.

 

this is what I don’t understand the middle third keeps saying they are being the worst hit. I agree if NOTHING changes. And if nothing changes this TA means nothing as UA will be on the brink. Once we reach 55% the middle tier is the same as the top tier and only down 7 hours. Instead of focusing on the right side of the chart let’s look in the middle?

 

I'm going to stop you RIGHT THERE
There is NO pilot that will NOT be able to put food on their table, or take care of their kids.. if they are furloughed. NOT ONE.
We are educated adults, we have skills. And I'm not just talking about flying airplanes. We have the education and fortitude to do lots of things.
BUT
If it comes down to being a deliverymen for Amazon.. you still put food on the table!
Before it even comes to that, there is unemployment, there is the money in your 401K that is able to be pulled out and repaid within 3 years, there is family and friends AND I will be supporting a resolution that would create a "Furlough Fund" for pilots to dip into if needed.

But I'm tired of hearing these passionate pleas of the pilots who will be homeless and on the food line.
Just a month ago we were hearing about all the pilots who took leaves because they had either found some sort of corp flying gig, were going back on Active Duty or had something else lined up.
Now.. we are hearing that pilots are going to go hungry if we don't vote YES?!
YGTBSM

I'll gladly donate 1% of my pay to a fund so we can buy 500$ supermarket gift cards every month for those pilots who need help putting food on the table.
If by next year we are still in panic mode, so be it. I thought we lived in America and believed in the Capitalistic system. If the US airline industry can no longer carry 4 major airlines then so be it. I do not believe that we will liquidate.
But if things were to get so bad, at what point do we look after our own family first?
Don't they brief that in the event of a loss of cabin pressure, put your mask on first before helping others?

Again, I have no issue helping out pilots in need. EVERYONE who knows me, knows that. But if someone is going to force me to help, I'll start to question WHY?

Motch

 

Thats a lot of boomer screeching right there!

 

When you hear a story, that either reinforces your belief or discredits it, try to ask yourself, is this the rule or the exception. Even if 50% of those facing furlough are landing good gigs, that would leave 50% who are not. In that scenario, you hear that “a lot” of pilots are finding work and also that “many” are not. Both statements are true. So it doesn’t have to be that one narrative is true and one false. Both can be true or false.

In this case, I would wager both are false. I do not think there are that many pilots finding great work right now… I also do not think there are that many pilots who are facing divorce directly from financial hardship yet. The question that might color your decision making, is what does that look like eight months from now? The answer, to me, is that there is not going to be very much work that will come close to replacing even a half time pilot salary. And I think the number of people who experience financial hardship will continue to go up. Again, you don’t have to choose a team/narrative, Both exist to varying degrees

that is the purpose of a formal union. To make rules that curb our natural instinct to take as much as we can for ourselves and by doing so, increase/better the livelihood/careers of others in our profession.

it sounds like you are skeptical if the premise of a union. Maybe right-to-work is a better model for you? I mean zero disrespect, but you are espousing views that run 180 degrees counter to a strong union presence in an industry

 

Yep all you say is correct, can’t argue with you but if I can help my brothers and sisters I will.

 

Ok, I'll give you the example.
And this in not me as I did not get a whole month of 764 flying.. I was lucky to get 2 or 3 trips a month (IRO) but I did work the system and got 100hrs a month and still slept in my own bed half the month!

Pilot A use to get 80 hours on 764. International.
$19600. Plus $3186 into his/her 401k

Now he/she has lost all their 400 flying but still a lineholder-
75hrs Domestic and mix of 75-2 and 76-3
He/she is now getting $15000 plus only $2400 into retirement.

Under I.2.a.i
IF he/she is still a line holder, they will get 63:00 based on 55% Middle/Top group.
$12600 plus $2016 retirement.

So.. said pilot made roughly $22800 summer of 2019.
Summer of 2020 they made $17400
Summer of 2021 they will be looking at $14600

And keep in mind. Said pilot choose to sit top 10% on the 756 for numerous reasons. QoL, Pay (maybe they got bought off trips for IOE) Not wanting to go to training due to vacation of something else in their life.. who knows.
But now-
They are being prevented from bidding into a higher seat THAT THEY CAN HOLD and now junior pilots who are being displaced will be in their same BES and making slightly more!

Again-
YCMTSU

If I am wrong, please show me the math.
Motch