Happy pride month 🚁🚁🚁💪!!!

But one little detail that you didn’t mention: all that diversity hiring was the result of an EEOC consent decree with United to change its pilot hiring practices to include more minorities and females that were hired. Via other lawsuits about sex and age discrimination for flight attendants, United was forced to change its policies.

Fast forward 40+ years, United has adopted and been a leader in diversity hiring in our industry. They walk the talk every day. I have no doubt that eventually United would have gotten to this point naturally as we are seeing with many other companies and industries, but the original EEOC involvement jump started the process putting United far ahead of others.

We won't be a winner until we stop being a loser. If we're worried about percentages of various categories of minorities instead of simply hiring the best of the best we are losing. We are losing better candidates to our competitors. Playing to win implies a willingness and a want to - to compete that is. I guess we will hire the best and brightest diversity candidates we can find. That about sums it up.

I have yet to fly with a new pilot that didn’t do a fantastic job, I wouldn’t say we are “losing” at all.

and based on incident/accident occurrences among the majors, I’d say we’re winnng.

Wait, the sky isn't falling?? You mean, we actually do a GOOD job hiring pilots? Whodathunkit?

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I don't think any of us have flown with the new crop of diversity pilots. They don't exist yet except in the imagination of HR, SK, and OBAP.

BTW, it's not about "doing a fantastic job." It's mostly about paying your dues to get here and earning your way into the profession. if you "earned your way" into the profession by being a certain race or gender, then you really didn't earn it. It was given to you.

The NTSB Report of the hard landing in EWR with the underqualified LOE CK Airman isn't published still. That wasn't what I would call a win. That airplane can't be re-used. That's a hull loss "statistically speaking of course."

What about our new hire that was killed by diversity? Winning?

Are you referring to the Atlas crash?

yes………….I am

How does that apply to the guy who got hired at 21 with 2000 hours because his father was a check airman?

There has to be at least 3 or 4 of those guys in the system.

Of course, that accident would never have happened if the check airman was a man. Woman makes a mistake, she's under qualified. You make a mistake, then every excuse in the book applies. Again, this thread is a great example of the reason this program is needed. I can only hope that people who think like you are being removed from the hiring process.

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This is such a weird thing to say. You literally have never met the person you’re talking to. And yet you have summed them up so completely that you have determined they don’t even deserve the job for which they have been hired by the same hiring department you put so much faith into.

You mean like how so many here have never met any of the thousands of diverse potential UAL pilots whom they’ve judged as being unsafe & unfit, and suggested that they’re going to bend metal & kill passengers? I find it odd, too.

I never said he didn't deserve his job. I said I hope he's not a part of the hiring process. Reading comprehension, please!

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I don’t think the argument that she was less qualified relative to other LCAs is debatable. Whether it would have happened to a more experienced LCA under the same conditions… we’ll never know.

that accident would never have happened if they hired the rite person in that position and not filled it with a quota.
Hire the most qualified person (woman or man) or whatever the gender flavor is of the day.
according to many folks/persons that have flown with her….she was under qualified.
Hire the most qualified “person” for the job. It’s that simple.
same thing applies to the atlas crash. We lost a new hire with great potential because of diversity.
I hope people like you are not part of any hiring process, but sadly it seems as though they are.

We did not lose a new hire due to diversity. That is very offensive...

We lost a new hire due to a crappy pilot and a poor training department, backed up by a poor management who failed to remove said pilot from a position where he could hurt others.


Look at his records... If he was hired at United, regardless of his demographics, and failed THAT many events... It would be a massive failure on the part of our management and training department. Whether he was black, white, woman, or man. No one is able to skip a short cycle here because they are a minority... The standards are the standards.

That Newark check airman met the standards. Unless you're telling me she only got hired into that position because she's a woman... Which is offensive to her, to other women who've worked hard to earn their check airman letter, and to the women who are not check airmen and desire to become one.

Since somehow her sex "made" United hire an unqualified pilot as a LCA... Why aren't all women check airmen? Why aren't all check airmen women? It's illogical and offensive, but a pervasive disease that I'm glad is being slowly rooted out.

To recapitulate... Because someone is a minority, does not mean they didn't meet the standards. Because someone has an accident, does not mean they were unqualified. Even if they were a minority. If someone, of any demographic, is hired into a position they didn't earn or deserve (multiple checkride failures, etc), then that is a failure of management and not "diversity."

These notions are prevalent in our profession, and very hurtful to the minorities who bust their butts every day to be the best they can be.

Imagine... Showing up to work knowing that if you make a mistake or have an accident or incident, the same colleagues who "Don't see color" will suddenly have lots to say about whether you deserved to be on your position in the first place.




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I'd be willing to gamble the deed to my condo that more bent metal or other serious accidents have been caused by unqualified WHITE MALES since the beginning of aviation than any other demographic. I could be wrong, but doubt it. *TONGUE IN CHEEK*

Now, were all these white male pilots really unqualified? Most certainly not. Are all accidents a chain of events that if broken would never have happened? Absolutely. We have gone from the hardware being the cause of most accidents to human factors being the #1 driver of incidents/accidents.

Historically there have been mostly white males as pilots. Why? Women and minorities were not given access to the same opportunities as white men. Not allowed to fly in the military or even serve at times. Not to mention the other barriers to entering this field that are socio-economic in nature. That is changing and United is a corporation advancing with the times. They are also legally responsible for the decisions that put pilots in the flight decks of hundred million dollar plus airplanes carrying hundreds of customers. The FAA and insurers have a say as well.

The unqualified argument is a load of **** and insulting to every person hired here who some don't view as fitting the traditional mold or saying this is different than how it's been for many years. Yes, you can read into that how that argument is being used in other segments of life, especially now.

That’s what these people do, they cancel you. Whether it’s banning you from Facebook or advocating you don’t be hired. These people preach and beat off to diversity yet can’t stand an opposing non woke opinion. They are hypocrites and utilize the same tactics as Marxists. Let’s be honest, United doesn’t care about diversity (they care about $$), they are just too scared about not being woke enough.


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Your last bit about perceptions is the number one reason affirmative action is a terrible idea and harmful to minorities. If we hired the most qualified regardless of race etc then minorities like myself wouldn’t have to worry about being questioned on whether I earned the job or not!?


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hate to break it to you bud, but there are plenty of unqualified pilots here and at other airlines. That’s just a statistical fact.
What is insulting is your using the term white male pilots. How bout we are all just pilots like we are all just Americans?
why all the labels? Traditional mold? I find that term insulting and divisive.
hate to break it to you but there were more as u say “white male pilots” because that’s what the majority of the population was.. It’s changing now because the demographics of the u.s. population is changing. Nothing more nothing less.
Can we please put all the woke garbage and divisive grouping of people away and just hire the best qualified and safest pilots?
Is this concept to hard for some to understand?

spot on! Excellent post!

Do you think airlines are afraid of lawsuits if they fire certain pilots in today’s woke world? If not then I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you
I stand by what I said. Offensive to you or not.
Aviation isn’t like any other cooperation. We need to hire the best and brightest no matter what demographic they fit in.
We aren’t like Coca Cola if you put in the wrong ingredients it just tastes bad….in our industry people die. And for that I’m unapologetic.

This thread is still alive? To sum it up for any new readers... one side thinks that hiring minorities and women is equal to hiring under qualified pilots. The other side is countering that argument.

All the other stuff is fluff and politics.

Let this thread die. None of us are in charge of the hiring department.

Do you know why those presumptions occur in the first place?

Because of the woke BS that the left perpetuates. The last 5 minority pilots I flew with all hate this “diversity and inclusion” quota goals for this very reason and all say the exact same thing - it creates doubt that they only got hired because of their skin color and not their merit. In other words, it takes away from their achievements. You are always leaving a doubt in their minds - “did I really earn this?” and you’re leaving doubt in other people’s minds whereas now anyone regardless of race and sex show up, you automatically presume they’re there on their own merit, after this wokism crap, the question will always be present “merit or race/sex?”

You can shout until you’re blue in the face that they “still earned it” but the reality stands that as long as there is a written and coded preference based on race and sex, that preference alone will always cast doubt on whether that individual has earned his or her spot based on merit or their skin color. And that’s not healthy for anyone.

Tammy Jo earned it. Mimi Tompkins earned it. Lou Freeman earned it. Thousands of others have earned it. Do we really need to take away from their achievements and accomplishments to make our white selves feel virtuous?

Except that we do hire the most qualified, yet minorities like myself have been the brunt of "diversity hire" comments, both in civilian and military circles. Someone even implied that somehow I was "given" DG in an AF program (talk about seeing red!) for to diversity quotas. I'm truly glad you've never experienced this.

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Honestly, I'm sure someone is concerned about it... But if a corporation is afraid to fire someone with just cause... A corporation with a huge legal department and who clearly makes strides to improve diversity and inclusion, then I'd say that's one manager who needs to go. You meet the standards, or you don't. Whether it's a regional or a major, that's how it is. So, what's the problem? The problem was at Atlas, they showed someone to continue flying who did not meet the standard. Make excuses about the company being "afraid" and throw the new right wing buzz word "woke" around all you want...the fact remains that atlas management killed our new hire by failing to enforce standards on their pilots.

United airlines enforces the standards. So what is the problem, again?

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All 5 of the minority pilots you've flown with have a problem with the zero hour aviate program trying to intake 50% minority candidates? Of which, only a small percentage will ever become airline pilots, and an even smaller percentage United pilots? That's strange, because most people I fly with either don't know much about the Aviate program or have someone they know who they are trying to get into it. In fact... I don't recall talking about diversity at all on my last few trips. Is that something you like to bring up with the minority pilots?

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The news was just talking about this study and it reminded me of this forum debate. It found that an African-American name on a resume is worth 8 years of experience. Thats a lot when compared to the airline sector.

https://cos.gatech.edu/facultyres/Di...kishaJamal.pdf

United diversity.......
 

All 5 of these guys seem to have a problem with quotas and anything that suggests they earned their spot due to their skin color and not their merit. I know that’s a very difficult concept for the woke geniuses to understand. To woke people, it appears that minorities must be incapable of achieving their goals and dreams without the virtuous woke white people letting them do so via quotas and virtue signaling.

Also, just about every pilot I know couldn’t give two feces about the race or sex of the person who’s sitting next to them. It’s as relevant as the color of their eyes. The topic would come up when talking about kids pursuing aviation, discussing airline hiring, and it’s not like this was some obscure news release either.

Ironic that this reply was to a “minority like yourself “. If you’ve both experienced the same scrutiny, skepticism and barriers, why are your attitudes so different?

btw, my wife and kids are minorities so this is an important topic to me.

True. Well said.

This looks like a normal business, but bolsheviks are using it for cover. The pilot must always examine his surroundings for anything that is out of place, because his enemy is skilled and determined. Take this HR department for example. Its flexible standards offer superior concealment to the production and service centers of the business. Luckily First Officer Robertson is an adept and observant employee. There he is, FO Robertson. Get him! CRACK!!! Another day is saved by vigilant employees like you.

Well said . I agree 1000%

That's a great point. That's no good. But, you and I know it's far worse than that. I can point to at least 7 people hired here that would have only had the flight time/qualificaitons to get on at a regional, at the time/date they were hired. However, due to their influence and connections, their lack of experience was overlooked or set a side.

My major point is this: I believe experience is a valuable teacher. One that cannot be immulated or short-cut. Experience, adn that building block aproach builds judgment. Someday when you upgrade, you lean on that judgement and pull from your past experiences. I would disagree with any process that short-cuts the building of, and the value of experience.

Lowering hiring minimums is akin to devaluing experience. Experience is the best teacher and therefore should not be marganilized or minimized, in partcular by HR who are setting minority quotas. We can call it "diversity" or whatever the buzz word of the day is. I call it "devaluing experience." The devaluing of experience will have an impact on safety. Maybe not today, but when you want to lean on and pull from that experience, it won't be there.

The other day, I went to look up something in my IPAD about windshear takeoffs as some foul WX aproached our runway for take off.. My IPAD froze on me. I had to lean on my experience. Sometimes our Ipads just don't work. I think you get my drift.

I wonder what the percentage is world-wide for pilots of genetic Swiss descent? Wouldn't they qualify as "diversity candidates?"

We could all look into our genetics, our past family tree to see where we descended from. I guess only women and people with brown skin color qualify as minorities. What a myopic view.