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-   -   United diversity....... (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/united/133541-united-diversity.html)

Cyborgmudhen 04-06-2021 11:21 AM

United diversity.......
 
Ima just leave this right here:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...d44-story.html

StopBeingWhimps 04-06-2021 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyborgmudhen (Post 3217758)


What the Hiring 300 pilots headline we saw last week should really say is... United hiring 300 black women pilots. If you are white and a male, dont even bother applying. United wants to help racism with racism. Unbelievable! It's amazing how far we have come as a society. We used to hire based on experience and qualifications. I have a side business with 6 employees. I looked for the best people and best qualified. It just happens to be a mix of black and white and 1 latino. I never looked at the skin color, I hired the inner-person and their experience.

synchro 04-06-2021 12:13 PM

Wild to see corporations not only admitting to race and gender discrimination in their hiring, but outright bragging about it.

Winston 04-06-2021 12:14 PM

Who cares? United can hire, train, and place in the cockpit whoever they like. Line-swine like us have no input on that decision. Relitigating the affirmative action chapter of the culture war here is an act of useless self-flagellation. The corporation​​​​​​ has obviously decided that this move and broadcasting it’s implementation will be a positive business move. So be it. I just fly airplanes.

FXLAX 04-06-2021 12:36 PM

United diversity.......
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Winston (Post 3217785)
Who cares? United can hire, train, and place in the cockpit whoever they like. Line-swine like us have no input on that decision. Relitigating the affirmative action chapter of the culture war here is an act of useless self-flagellation. The corporation​​​​​​ has obviously decided that this move and broadcasting it’s implementation will be a positive business move. So be it. I just fly airplanes.


If management/ownership has decided that racism is a positive business move, would you still have the same position?

Also, if UAL had instead said that it wants half their pilots they hire to be white, would that be an issue?

Just some food for thought.

Softpayman 04-06-2021 12:37 PM

The woke are pleased. Now only if they would quit their jobs to help accelerate the process. But.... they won’t.

RJSAviator76 04-06-2021 12:53 PM

Why does UAL863 on 28 June 1998 come to mind?

GolferNJ 04-06-2021 01:01 PM

When I look at the seniority tracker I will move up about 4,500 by this time in 2030. So we are only growing by 500 pilots from today’s numbers over the next decade? That’s a problem.

okawner 04-06-2021 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GolferNJ (Post 3217811)
When I look at the seniority tracker I will move up about 4,500 by this time in 2030. So we are only growing by 500 pilots from today’s numbers over the next decade? That’s a problem.

That's just at the flight school. Article states a total target of 10K new hires by 2030.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

MasterOfPuppets 04-06-2021 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GolferNJ (Post 3217811)
When I look at the seniority tracker I will move up about 4,500 by this time in 2030. So we are only growing by 500 pilots from today’s numbers over the next decade? That’s a problem.

that’s just 5000 pilots through Aviate.

Bestglide 04-06-2021 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets (Post 3217830)
that’s just 5000 pilots through Aviate.

Aviation is very forgiving...no need to hire the most qualified.....what can go wrong?

Airhoss 04-06-2021 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okawner (Post 3217827)
That's just at the flight school. Article states a total target of 10K new hires by 2030.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Remember according to UAL we were going to have 17,000 pilots on property by 2019. These predictions are always 100% correct.

Varsity 04-06-2021 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StopBeingWhimps (Post 3217782)
What the Hiring 300 pilots headline we saw last week should really say is... United hiring 300 black women pilots. If you are white and a male, dont even bother applying. United wants to help racism with racism. Unbelievable! It's amazing how far we have come as a society. We used to hire based on experience and qualifications.

Two thoughts come to mind;

1. The USA is becoming a silly nation. The banana republic kind where corruption runs rampant and nothing gets done.

2. China is going to kick our ass.

Vernon Demerest 04-06-2021 02:54 PM

As a white male, I’ve spent the last 22 years flying with 99 % white males. I’ve run out of things to talk about and welcome the diversity this might bring to a flight deck I’m a member of. As long as they are qualified to be in the seat, being them on. The difficult part of this ambitious goal (at least 2500 non white males trained/placed at United Express carriers and ultimately United Airlines over the next 10 years) is finding those individuals and steering them in our direction (through Aviate). We won’t be the only carrier trying to attract these underrepresented future pilots. I hope our Aviate group is looking into junior high visits etc where career decisions are often formed because we are really going to need a ton of interest in order to see 2,500 success stories in ten years.

Over the years I’ve noticed a trend. During boarding, young people (age 6-15) traveling with their parents may or may not be interested in stopping by the flight deck for a quick tour and pic and their parents often direct the interest. White parents are far more prone to nudge their kid into the cockpit for a tour. I’ve noticed several parents that were non-white smile at my offer but say things like “he/she doesn’t need to be up there bothering you, or are you serious?” Non- white people don’t often know pilots personally and therefore aren’t as comfortable walking into a strange work environment while a larger percentage of whites do know or have airline pilots in their lives and feel more comfortable interacting with them in this setting. A cockpit visit confirmed my desire to do this for a living. I was around 6.

StallWeezy 04-06-2021 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vernon Demerest (Post 3217881)
As a white male, I’ve spent the last 22 years flying with 99 % white males. I’ve run out of things to talk about....I hope our Aviate group is looking into junior high visits etc where career decisions are often formed.

I’ll take the obvious flame bait here and just say you’re gonna be really underwhelmed at the lack of new and exciting things to talk about.

Junior high, really?

Vernon Demerest 04-06-2021 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StallWeezy (Post 3217892)
I’ll take the obvious flame bait here and just say you’re gonna be really underwhelmed at the lack of new and exciting things to talk about.

Junior high, really?


Junior high is a good time to warn kids about maintaining a clean record etc. Not necessarily a discussion on academics

MochaSwirl 04-06-2021 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vernon Demerest (Post 3217881)
As a white male, I’ve spent the last 22 years flying with 99 % white males. I’ve run out of things to talk about and welcome the diversity this might bring to a flight deck I’m a member of. As long as they are qualified to be in the seat, being them on. The difficult part of this ambitious goal (at least 2500 non white males trained/placed at United Express carriers and ultimately United Airlines over the next 10 years) is finding those individuals and steering them in our direction (through Aviate). We won’t be the only carrier trying to attract these underrepresented future pilots. I hope our Aviate group is looking into junior high visits etc where career decisions are often formed because we are really going to need a ton of interest in order to see 2,500 success stories in ten years.

So someone please tell me, what the big deal is?

Nobody is trying to combat racism with racism and is a foolish thought to think of.

As Vernon said 99% of the people he works with are black.

3% of commercial pilots are black, hell 1% consist of women, and 7% Hispanic, so GOD forbid we add a little diversity into the mix so as long as they’re qualified!

Nobody said anything about lowering standards , and I wouldn’t be surprised if someone even took offense to that statement either, because it seems as though that due to the fact that one is a person of color they must be less qualified to hold the position at hand.

I bet if one said “I didn’t get the job because I’m black/asian/latino” one would be up in arms about that too saying “Don’t bring up, the race card”

Well boom, they’re qualified some more than qualified,and it just so happens airlines are trying to be more diverse.

Last I checked, there’s still a stigma about black people, if there wasn’t one wouldnt of mentioned anything about “lowering standards”.

They have to pass the same checkrides you do, go through the same training as you do and follow procedures as you.

It’s funny when I see posts like this because some of you act like you have a chip on your shoulder because you think a lesbian, Asian, Jamaican, woman took your job.

All the while 90%+ consist of Caucasian males.

End of the day if you have some crap to say in regards to welcoming diversity to qualified individuals no matter, what race, gender, or creed you just sound sad.

Vent on here I guess, because you never would do it in front of them because you’d scatter like roaches and we’d all be hearing crickets.

Vernon Demerest 04-06-2021 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MochaSwirl (Post 3217902)
So someone please tell me, what the big deal is?

Nobody is trying to combat racism with racism and is a foolish thought to think of.

As Vernon said 99% of the people he works with are black.

3% of commercial pilots are black, hell 1% consist of women, and 7% Hispanic, so GOD forbid we add a little diversity into the mix so as long as they’re qualified!

Nobody said anything about lowering standards , and I wouldn’t be surprised if someone even took offense to that statement either, because it seems as though that due to the fact that one is a person of color they must be less qualified to hold the position at hand.

I bet if one said “I didn’t get the job because I’m black/asian/latino” one would be up in arms about that too saying “Don’t bring up, the race card”

Well boom, they’re qualified some more than qualified,and it just so happens airlines are trying to be more diverse.

Last I checked, there’s still a stigma about black people, if there wasn’t one wouldnt of mentioned anything about “lowering standards”.

They have to pass the same checkrides you do, go through the same training as you do and follow procedures as you.

It’s funny when I see posts like this because some of you act like you have a chip on your shoulder because you think a lesbian, Asian, Jamaican, woman took your job.

All the while 90%+ consist of Caucasian males.

End of the day if you have some crap to say in regards to welcoming diversity to qualified individuals no matter, what race, gender, or creed you just sound sad.

Vent on here I guess, because you never would do it in front of them because you’d scatter like roaches and we’d all be hearing crickets.


If your post is in reference to mine that you have quoted, I suggest you re-read it.

Softpayman 04-06-2021 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vernon Demerest (Post 3217881)
As a white male, I’ve spent the last 22 years flying with 99 % white males. I’ve run out of things to talk about and welcome the diversity this might bring to a flight deck I’m a member of. As long as they are qualified to be in the seat, being them on. The difficult part of this ambitious goal (at least 2500 non white males trained/placed at United Express carriers and ultimately United Airlines over the next 10 years) is finding those individuals and steering them in our direction (through Aviate). We won’t be the only carrier trying to attract these underrepresented future pilots. I hope our Aviate group is looking into junior high visits etc where career decisions are often formed because we are really going to need a ton of interest in order to see 2,500 success stories in ten years.

Over the years I’ve noticed a trend. During boarding, young people (age 6-15) traveling with their parents may or may not be interested in stopping by the flight deck for a quick tour and pic and their parents often direct the interest. White parents are far more prone to nudge their kid into the cockpit for a tour. I’ve noticed several parents that were non-white smile at my offer but say things like “he/she doesn’t need to be up there bothering you, or are you serious?” Non- white people don’t often know pilots personally and therefore aren’t as comfortable walking into a strange work environment while a larger percentage of whites do know or have airline pilots in their lives and feel more comfortable interacting with them in this setting. A cockpit visit confirmed my desire to do this for a living. I was around 6.

Why don’t you give up your job so that an extra new hire fitting this profile could be hired to replace you?

MochaSwirl 04-06-2021 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vernon Demerest (Post 3217908)
If your post is in reference to mine that you have quoted, I suggest you re-read it.

No, it wasn’t. I’m in agreement with what you said.

MochaSwirl 04-06-2021 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Softpayman (Post 3217911)
Why don’t you give up your job so that an extra new hire fitting this profile could be hired to replace you?

Lol seriously?Who hurt you?

Softpayman 04-06-2021 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MochaSwirl (Post 3217922)
Lol seriously?Who hurt you?

Serious. If having too many white guys is an issue for him, why not resign? I’ll tell you why. Because he doesn’t care enough to inconvenience himself. But he’s more than ok with a future new-hire not getting a job based on race. How convenient wouldn’t you say?

oldmako 04-06-2021 04:47 PM

https://images.absolutdrinks.com/dri...pg?imwidth=500


My good friend spent almost 20 years flying as an ex-pat after BubbleJet failed, all it in Asia (as Captain) for one airline or another. From what he tells me, nearly ALL of his FO's were VERY low-time pilots who managed to have the secret handshake and key to the cockpit. IOW, flying experience, skill, and merit had nothing to do with their stripes. Somedays, stuff happens. Who do YOU want next to you when it does? I don't care who you are, who your parents were, or who you choose to love... can you fly and keep your head on straight when the feces pings the fan blades?

All that being said, I have seen some guys with stellar resumes do incredibly stupid things in airplanes.

Chuck D 04-06-2021 04:58 PM

There is a chasm between early outreach and modifying standards. Outreach that gets more people interested in aviation - that brings out the best of a more diverse and well qualified pool of candidates to United is just good policy. Full stop. Nobody is lowering standards and we get to build good pilots from the ground up with this program, so strawmanning one for the other is a lazy argument.

Agree with Vernon that we could probably all do better at encouraging the little girl or boy from any background to come up and check out the flight deck and not feel it’s a hassle. We have a really great profession but it hasn’t always been a really welcoming one.

trip 04-06-2021 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winston (Post 3217785)
Who cares? United can hire, train, and place in the cockpit whoever they like.

That's not true.

Octaflugaron 04-06-2021 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vernon Demerest (Post 3217881)
As a white male, I’ve spent the last 22 years flying with 99 % white males. I’ve run out of things to talk about and welcome the diversity this might bring to a flight deck I’m a member of. As long as they are qualified to be in the seat, being them on. The difficult part of this ambitious goal (at least 2500 non white males trained/placed at United Express carriers and ultimately United Airlines over the next 10 years) is finding those individuals and steering them in our direction (through Aviate). We won’t be the only carrier trying to attract these underrepresented future pilots. I hope our Aviate group is looking into junior high visits etc where career decisions are often formed because we are really going to need a ton of interest in order to see 2,500 success stories in ten years.

Over the years I’ve noticed a trend. During boarding, young people (age 6-15) traveling with their parents may or may not be interested in stopping by the flight deck for a quick tour and pic and their parents often direct the interest. White parents are far more prone to nudge their kid into the cockpit for a tour. I’ve noticed several parents that were non-white smile at my offer but say things like “he/she doesn’t need to be up there bothering you, or are you serious?” Non- white people don’t often know pilots personally and therefore aren’t as comfortable walking into a strange work environment while a larger percentage of whites do know or have airline pilots in their lives and feel more comfortable interacting with them in this setting. A cockpit visit confirmed my desire to do this for a living. I was around 6.

Dude, enough with the white guilt and self-loathing. You need to get out of the house more often.

- Octa

Birddog 04-06-2021 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varsity (Post 3217879)
Two thoughts come to mind;

1. The USA is becoming a silly nation. The banana republic kind where corruption runs rampant and nothing gets done.

2. China is going to kick our ass.

China has to be feeling good right now. They won't militarily take on the US, but the US is toast.

https://www.amazon.com/Hundred-Year-Marathon-Strategy-Replace-Superpower/dp/1250081343

ItnStln 04-06-2021 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJSAviator76 (Post 3217803)
Why does UAL863 on 28 June 1998 come to mind?

How does that come to mind?

SkylaneRG 04-06-2021 08:49 PM

As a female, this is disappointing. The best candidates should be hired based on skills and qualifications, not a metric. It's going to make the whole lot of us (women, other minorities) seem less qualified because we were hired to meet a quota, not because we were best for a job. Eventually that will show and it'll hurt the reputation of those of us who were hired for the right reasons. I'm the only female at my current job (15 pilot part 91 gig) and I appreciate that I was hired for the quality of work I do and not to check a box. I'm sure my colleagues appreciate it, too.

This a step backwards, IMO.

SonicCarhop 04-06-2021 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkylaneRG (Post 3218056)
As a female, this is disappointing. The best candidates should be hired based on skills and qualifications, not a metric. It's going to make the whole lot of us (women, other minorities) seem less qualified because we were hired to meet a quota, not because we were best for a job. Eventually that will show and it'll hurt the reputation of those of us who were hired for the right reasons. I'm the only female at my current job (15 pilot part 91 gig) and I appreciate that I was hired for the quality of work I do and not to check a box. I'm sure my colleagues appreciate it, too.

This a step backwards, IMO.

Do you believe that men are inherently better pilots than women? I'm guessing (and would agree) the answer is no.

So why are there 10 male pilots at United for every 1 female? Because the pool of candidates to work at a major airline currently only allows for that.

The announcement by United isn't a quota to hire a certain number of female mainline pilots. It's a goal to have a certain percentage of female/minority candidates into their Aviate pipeline program by breaking down barriers to entry and partnering with non-traditional sources for recruiting.

Down the line this will eventually expand and improve the hiring pool for pilots at major airlines, where pilots will continue to be hired based on skills and qualifications.

Halon1211 04-06-2021 09:19 PM

As a person who self-identifies as Newmale (it’s a new gender) it kinda makes me wonder if companies are hiring the most qualified people or just hiring people because they feel sorry for a certain group.

SkylaneRG 04-06-2021 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicCarhop (Post 3218057)
Do you believe that men are inherently better pilots than women? I'm guessing (and would agree) the answer is no.

So why are there 10 male pilots at United for every 1 female? Because the pool of candidates to work at a major airline currently only allows for that.

The announcement by United isn't a quota to hire a certain number of female mainline pilots. It's a goal to have a certain percentage of female/minority candidates into their Aviate pipeline program by breaking down barriers to entry and partnering with non-traditional sources for recruiting.

Down the line this will eventually expand and improve the hiring pool for pilots at major airlines, where pilots will continue to be hired based on skills and qualifications.

I think women with equal motivation and work ethic make equal pilots. I unfortunately know too many women that pilots just to say they're pilots and then scream disadvantaged from the rooftops if they're not hired, when they're not the best person for the job.

I think we can all agree that the best pilots should be flying without regard to race or gender. To get the best available candidates we need more candidates.. Start young by going to elementary and middle schools. Do high school career days. Introduce women to successful women in this career and others, but don't blindly make a 50% metric. 50% of aspiring pilots are not female and that is okay. I bet 50% of aspiring cosmetologist are not men and that's fine too. Help those that want in this career and are willing and able to make the sacririfces required. That goes for everyone, not just women and minorities. I will say, women have a much larger opportunity for scholarships and financial assistance, so I don't see that as the issue to entry compared to male counterparts.

These are my thoughts based on my career and experience in aviation. I'm glad I have this career and I'm actually really glad I know I earned this job and my gender didn't play a factor in checking some box.

Don't lower the standards. Keep the best people up front. Period.


hummingbear 04-06-2021 10:44 PM

Not sure exactly how they’re defining “people of color”, but 40% of our country’s population is non-white. Around 50% are women. It shouldn’t be too hard to fill half a class with other than white dudes without sacrificing standards.

HuggyU2 04-06-2021 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hummingbear (Post 3218075)
It shouldn’t be too hard to fill half a class with other than white dudes without sacrificing standards.

Glad to know you have the solution that's not too hard! Care to share it with the rest of us?

Andy Dufresne 04-06-2021 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MochaSwirl (Post 3217902)
So someone please tell me, what the big deal is?

so as long as they’re qualified!

Nobody said anything about lowering standards

Well boom, they’re qualified some more than qualified,and it just so happens airlines are trying to be more diverse.

They have to pass the same checkrides you do, go through the same training as you do and follow procedures as you.

The big issue will be United allowing this “goal” to become a quota - like much of the rest of the corporate world is beginning to lean towards for the sake of “diversity.”

When you hire an individual with multiple check ride busts and half the flight time over a guy with a spotless record and a wealth of experience, you’ve created a problem. That’s inevitably what will happen, and United will not be a better airline for it.

You are doing a disservice to the entire industry by parroting the nonsense about “qualifications.” Hiring candidates who meet minimum standards should never be the goal, and certainly not just because of the demographic they were born into.

Are you the most qualified candidate for the job?

That should be the only metric being used. Anyone arguing for something else is begging for disaster. This is not an industry that can afford to sacrifice quality for the sake of being woke and making sure everyone knows how un-racist/sexist/phobic we are.

Are you the most qualified candidate for the job?

That’s it.

MacrossJet 04-06-2021 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StopBeingWhimps (Post 3217782)
Unbelievable! It's amazing how far we have come as a society. We used to hire based on experience and qualifications.

Scratches head. When was that? Didn't United get sued back in the day by black WWII aviators, in order to finally integrate the cockpit? Hmmm.

hummingbear 04-07-2021 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuggyU2 (Post 3218078)
Glad to know you have the solution that's not too hard! Care to share it with the rest of us?

Just to be clear, you’re saying if less than 50% of a pilot training program are white males, it necessarily means selection standards have been lowered?

flyguy23 04-07-2021 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hummingbear (Post 3218075)
Not sure exactly how they’re defining “people of color”, but 40% of our country’s population is non-white. Around 50% are women. It shouldn’t be too hard to fill half a class with other than white dudes without sacrificing standards.


This is extreme oversimplification. The pilot field is mostly white male, and it's not due to racism. Women dominate certain fields, and minorities are more prevalent in certain fields. Im all for encouraging minorities and women to fly if they so choose, but hiring based on societal demographics instead of applicant pool demographics is just wrong.

To achieve the stated goal of 50%, they'll have to go to extremes to gather that much interest to level the demographic playing field. If not, this hiring practice is dangerous. If women make up 5% of applicants, but 50% of new hires, youre just taking anyone that comes along qualifications be damned.

Women I know are completely against this practice for reasons stated above. They have reached the top of their career through hard work and earned every bit of it. They have no desire to be put in a group of people with special privileges where people question their achievements.

Varsity 04-07-2021 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hummingbear (Post 3218075)
Not sure exactly how they’re defining “people of color”, but 40% of our country’s population is non-white. Around 50% are women. It shouldn’t be too hard to fill half a class with other than white dudes without sacrificing standards.


Not sure what decade you're living in.

Prior to covid, regional airlines couldn't hardly find pilots of any kind, at all. The ones they did find had a history of training failures and lead to deviations, incidents, accidents; Commutair, Envoy, Atlas - crashing a wide body. Imagine if that were a United 767 full of hundreds of innocent people.

Holding the standard during huge turn over is tough enough. Accomplishing some nazi-style genetic social engineering program on top of that is just not in the cards, regardless of how good it sounds on paper.

If you truly value safety over everything else, you'll take the most qualified candidates no matter what they look like or have between their legs.

Air Stang 7 04-07-2021 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halon1211 (Post 3218060)
As a person who self-identifies as Newmale (it’s a new gender) it kinda makes me wonder if companies are hiring the most qualified people or just hiring people because they feel sorry for a certain group.

I am a gray tree frog. It allows me to select the color and gender currently the most in demand by the racist woke people.


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