Seniority Request
 

Hello. I'm trying to get some data to illustrate to the wife the pros/cons of staying at the LCC we're currently at vs going to UAL. I wasn't able to find a seniority calculator like the delta one so hoping someone can fill in the gaps for me. Bonus points if you can show me a resource or something that I can look it up without bothering y'all.

Current time to hold a line FO NB EWR?
Current time to CA NB EWR?
Current time to hold a line CA NB EWR?
Current time to hold a line FO 777 or 787 EWR?
Current time to CA 777 or 787 EWR?
Current time to hold a line CA 777 or 787 EWR?

Thank you and appreciate in advance any data y'all can provide to help me make the business case to the boss here.

Yeah good luck with that. Things will move fast on a NB fleet in EWR. What you should be concerned about is what your seniority will hold during the years that you are at the top of the pay scale.

Couple months
Exactly one year
Something like 55% seniority company wide
Not sure, less than 737 ca
Long time
Lonnnnnnng time

If you want a current, actionable data point, EWR 737ca is available at exactly one year as soon as you meet contractual minimums to upgrade. It has been like that for six months and there’s a decent chance It will remain so long enough for you to hit one year.

Answers to your questions may be quickly "OBE" as we have a large vacancy bid opening today which includes initial filling of the new Vegas and Orlando 737 bases. The latter base will have the greatest impact on EWR seniority as that is, by far, the commute of choice for over 1,000 UAL pilots living in FL. Right NOW, you can hold 737 Captain at any UAL base except Houston as soon as you are off probation with 500 UAL hours which is 12 months time. Assuming that 80% seniority is 737 CA lineholder seniority, that is currently at about '15/'16 hires at both EWR and IAD. Meanwhile, on the WB side you can hold 777 or 787 FO at any of the coastal bases (EWR, IAD, LAX, SFO) in your first year if it's not available in your newhire class. WB FO at places like ORD, IAH and DEN are all down to less than 2-3 years as well. Being a WB lineholder, however, requires closer to 70% than 80% seniority because the "G line" is usually higher with seasonal flying fluctuation that is greater than the NB fleets. So 777 or 787 FO lineholder in the coastal bases is probably in the 3-4 year range but can vary across fleets a bit. Again, all these numbers are changing rapidly...generally all coming DOWN in time. Good luck!

FWIW, we do have a seniority progresssion calculator, but 1) it doesn’t take into account growth and 2) you have to be an employee to see it. Unitedseniority.com.

Pretty much agree with Backfire on his answers. Upgrade times at the moment are at the 1-year mark, although you'll be on reserve for a few years more than likely. There are plenty of folks waiting to hold a line to upgrade, but there are lots of WB F/Os that never want to fly a NB again! Reserve in base is "palatable" but not great (hopefully that gets fixed with a new contract). Commuting to reserve is pretty much a no-go for most people. I've been on property for a little over 9 years and hold NB CA in EWR as a junior line holder (~ 65% in base). There will be plenty of upward movement in the next several years, based on the aircraft orders and retirements alone, so I would say the time to a NB CA line will come down. Pull the trigger and c'mon over, the water is warm. You can also do the WB FO thing and get a "better" schedule if you choose to do that type of flying and make very close to what a NB CA makes on reserve. But at least you'll have that option. I know the whole "happy wife=happy life" mantra, but YOU are the man of the house. Run the castle the way you feel is right!! Best of luck. Oh, keep in mind I'm divorced, so take that advice at your own risk! ;-)

Sorry to bring this thread back up from the grave, but considering making the jump over to UAL. (grass is greener on the other side syndrome)


I am 38, born in 1985. So I could theoretically fly until about 2050. I know UA has hired a ton recently, and many are probably younger than me.

Delta simulator from the top of this thread says I would not make it past about seniority number 5000. So rounding off means I would never be in top 30%



Any idea on how far up the list I would make it at UA about 27 years from now using today's numbers?



Some former skywest guy posted spreadsheets on FB a while back, but I can't find those anymore

I’m one year younger than you and I’ll retire just under 2400, I was hired earlier this year.

Depending on the month you born, there are 3200-3400 younger than you currently on property.

With what they want for growth , 3000 is the new 1,000. They keep saying 28,000 pilots is the plan, even if it ends up at 20,000 it’s still good growth. You don’t need amazing seniority to have great qol especially if widebody flying works for you.

Retirements are easy to predict, growth is hard.

The ride a late ‘23 hire will have is really dependent on growth. Could be great, could be merely good.

But if you can be happy as a mid-seniority nbca or wbfo, the water is still fine.

I have heard at AA lots of wide body FO never upgrade to narrow body CA. The international QOL flying is very attractive to them.

They don’t have “global reserve” and their commuter clause is rock solid. WB trips are easily commutable at AA and they can list for the jumpseat 8 days prior, whoever lists first gets it, seniority does not apply. It’s so good they have pilots who commute to WB FO over holding NB CA in the base they live in. I’m sure an AA pilot could swoop in and tell you more on why it’s so good.

Nice to see someone else using ‘OBE’. ‘Overcome By Events’ happens often when plans are laid out.

The Newark airport has a few issues, no doubt. If one is based there, seat progression seems as good as any base, better than most.

As a widebody FO I am in the same boat, I love the flying, overnights etc. I sleep well anywhere anytime so that helps. There is a part of me that thinks where the extra money can go if I was a captain, but I also know I’ll be gone at least 5 days more a month at my seniority

Isn’t it nice to have a mix, so whatever floats your boat. (Provided you have seniority to hold it.)

I flew with a NB CA who wants to not only give up NB CA but also bypass WB FO in base to commute to a different WB base just because the trips were better and commuting is so easy (relatively speaking). I thought that person was crazy for that, but still

Seniority doesn’t apply for the jumpseat? That sounds terrible. One mans trash I guess.

I would take WB FO over NB CA any day. Work one 3 day a week in Denver(all we have are 3 day trips on the 78 in Denver) or 4 days a week on the NB? Easy choice.

It's a bit worse for the really senior guys, but it lets you plan, have peace of mind and it is way less stressful. Unless you are #1 at UA, you can't ever truly be sure you'll get the seat. Non-rev works in a similar way (time of check in). Don't have to compete with 50 year FA's and GA's whose longevity a pilot could never beat.

If UAL ever followed suit or at least copy and pasted DAL’s JS policy (seniority doesn’t apply within the 24 hour window) you’ll realize how terrible your take on this subject was. You don’t know what you don’t know, and my friend you don’t know.

The piece of mind of essentially listing for your own unpaid DH to work (if it’s available, it’s immediately yours) makes commuting significantly less stressful.

Seniority based jumpseating only sounds good to those who've never experienced being able to book a jumpseat and not worry about it again.

I prefer having the option to book it whenever I want. Plans change all the time. If I’m senior enough to get it, great. If not, oh well. Also, there’s no reason to stress about getting to work. Even if you’re a new hire, unless you’re missing trips because you’re doing something dumb.

Agree. Seniority based jumpseat award works fine. Need to “get to work”? Buy a ticket to arrive the day prior and get a hotel room. You make plenty of money, and are commuting by choice. Then there is no stress.

Unless of course you commute from a station that only has 2 direct flights a day, that dropped to 1 during Covid and was 4 pre-Covid. Nothing inconvenient about having a backup 10 hours later. I know seniority rules and commuting is a choice.

Correct. Buy a ticket on a flight the day prior and get a hotel room. Problem solved.

I suspect you are just the type of pilot that is super senior and waltzes up to the gatehouse 15 minutes prior and says, "Here I am, I know I'm not listed but the jumpseat is mine, mine, mine".

That’s how the seniority system works.

I fail to see what is stressful about that scenario. If you make it or don't, if you are playing by the rules, there's no stress. Why would someone wait 10 hours for a direct flight? Nowadays you can see the loads on every airline. Flights cancelling due to a weather event seem to have a much bigger impact on people's commutes than the dreaded "#1 guy showing up 5 minutes before boarding" scenario that people like to use as an example.

What app do you use to see every flight’s loads? Thanks.

Staff Traveler... works great

https://stafftraveler.com/

It was a game changer when it came out. That and the jumpseat finder on the ALPA app are an awesome pair for commuting.

Did someone make your eggs a little too salty this morning gramps? If we’re going to keep our current system (until at least the “seniority is everything” crowd retires) how about you have a little more respect for your coworkers and list for flights you think you’ll probably make. Nothing worse than being on the employee bus when the 1990 hire shows up on the jumpseat list. I’m just glad I don’t commute anymore.

The problem is you don't even know the day before that you need to buy a ticket because you have no idea whether you would get the jumpseat yet or not unless a senior guy happened to list for it in advance. Either opinion is valid, but this is a very poor "solution." Your proposal would actually be much more applicable to a jumpseat system based on reservable jumpseats.

I think there should be a 30 minute cutoff but outside of that seniority rules just like for everything else.

Thanks! Seems like last time I looked into the app it required a Facebook account, which I don’t have. Thanks for sharing the info👍🏼

(until at least the “seniority is everything” crowd retires)

once they all retire and you are finally senior I'll bet you won't be so interested in giving up priority based on seniority.

I find it interesting that self serving people always assume everyone else is going to be self serving too. It's as if thinking about and looking out for others or improving broken systems never occurs to them.

Until I'm #1 on the list, there's always a chance someone will beat me to the jump seat at the last minute. I would much rather know a week in advance if I will make the jumpseat or if I need to buy a ticket or if I should look at another flight. Stability. Predictability. Situational awareness. The ability to plan ahead. These aren't new or novel concepts. Is anyone really going to say logging onto a website 30 mins-7 days before departure is that difficult? Hell if all you care about is ****ting on the newer hires, then add in a timer function where if a junior pilot bids on a jump seat, a senior pilot has x many hours to trump that. Or give pilots X many jump seat points to bid on a trip per year. Want to blow them all on a really important trip? Go for it. if you don't need the jump seat then don't bid as much. There are better solutions than just showing up to the gate with very little information and hoping for the best.

I can only speak to my own commuting reality, but does this scenario that you speak of, relative to all of your commutes, happen often? I think I’ve seen it once, where I’m actually planning on the JS and someone comes in under an hour to take my seat.

That’s when a real Captain says..”no, it’s actually mine and you’re not on it”

You are entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to my own. I agree that seniority is the system this industry was built on and it should have its perks. But I don’t agree with the attitude of I ate a sh!t sandwich so everyone behind me should too. That sh!t sandwich sure will taste good when you’ve been here for 20+ years.

When it takes 30 seconds to pull out your phone and list for a jumpseat and there is an abundance of technology out there that can implement seniority driven solutions like BlueScholar mentioned, there’s no reason why someone junior to you should drag themselves to the airport just to get bumped at the last second with limited options to get to where they need to go. Sure, buy a ticket, but that’s not going to happen when double digit seniority guy shows up to the podium 10 minutes before the flight.

This attitude is also why we still lag behind our peers with QWL provisions and the company able to work us into our days off. I am in no way trying to weasel my way around seniority, but there are a lot of things out there that we don’t have and won’t get because “that’s the way it’s always been.”