And then had both sides claiming victories when they "negotiated" back to our current book rules.

Just so the pilots on probation feel a little better, this years value will equate to roughly $1800/$100k in eligible earnings.

Thats based on the 2019 number corrected for 2022 pre-tax revenue. Based on a bigger employees force, it’ll be even less.

What would make them feel better is if they also got paid for their efforts, regardless of the amount. I hope no one here is thinking, we should cut out new hires because they'll diminish my piece of the pie."

well, new hires aren’t equals, according to someone here. Scum of the earth, you might say.

maybe one of the most a-hole things I’ve ever heard a pilot say about other pilots.

Already posted on FT

PS 1.6787%

Are feelings in the contract?

If it's not contractual language, then its a wholly moot point. If someone hasn't been on property for the prior full year, they are not part of the profit sharing discussion for that year.

Should we expend negotiating capital to include this in the next contract?

What “some” of these “damn, where is my Profit Sharing Check” crowd don’t understand is that-
It is a negotiated benefit.
There is a price for it.

I URGE any pilot hired in 2022 that feels that they were minimized to submit a resolution to try and change it.
THAT is how a union works. Get enough pilots together and make a change.
Maybe you can also get some from 2019, 2018, etc.. who didn’t get a share to join you.

If we have 133 mil to divide up between 12000 pilots,
or
133 mil to divide up between 15000 pilots, (retirees and 2022 hires) there will be a difference.

You tell me how much of our negotiated money we have to give up to make you feel happy?!

Motch

we are getting 1.6787%

That is exactly what "motch" is thinking.

Pathetic. Formula needs changing. 16% DC needs to go into the 401…and new hires need to be pro-rated. Let’s go NC. Common sense here.

Here's one data point for you. I've been on property for nine months so I won't get any PS this year, but if I were included my check would have been for about $878. Actually would have been less than that, since including more people would have lowered the percentage everyone got. I'm not going to lose sleep over it. We've got way bigger fish to fry as we push to close out this contract.

Last I checked. Profit Sharing is a fish that needs to fry. Among a ton of other things. The days of UAL being behind DAL are over in contract substance. The NC knows this and a skeleton of a TA will not make it through.

Im confused. You say the percentage is pathetic, then you make two suggestions that would lower the percentage. I don’t think either is a bad idea, just pointing out the inconsistency.

Not losing $2B to start the year is probably the best way to increase PS. Alternatively… new contract with a decent raise should blow any PS out of the water.

Our formula is better. They are just more profitable due to less unions, fortress hubs in cheap landing fee airports, more planes centralized on a booming domestic market for the past 20 yrs, and farming out their widebody lift. Everyone on our list benefits from our widebodies pulling the senior bidders off the narrow bodies allowing you to be a higher % in whatever seat you are holding.

Two very different airlines.

Our formula is not better. In fact as we grow and add to the expense line we fall further behind. Our 2022 expense were $42,618 Million as recently reported. In order to have 6.9% profit margins we would have had to make $2.9 billion in profit. So that’s an extra $400 million that DAL gets 20% of that we don’t. As expenses go up with new aircraft and more employees, it takes even more profit to hit the 6.9% and we fall further behind. It’s simple economics of scale. The company knew this years ago and we fell for it. Another classic example of Checkers vs Chess.

I believe our expenses this year were abnormally high due to debt, excess training, building at tk and new ord ops center and aircraft purchases but they should fall. Normally we are in the 2.3-2.7B to make the 6.9% cutoff. Delta has a hard dollar cap of 2.5B for the 10%-20% limit (for those that don't know.) My point was that the problem isn't the formula as they are virtually identical. They just produce more profits than we can currently.

So you think our expenses are going down? Despite adding a net 1500 pilots per year and net growth a/c? I’m expecting a contract in 2023 so add in those billions to the expense line. I don’t have your sort of optimism that costs will be reigned in while we execute United Next. I think expenses go up over time as history has shown they do. Cost of everything has gone up with inflation. I don’t think looking back at expenses is realistic. If we don’t shrink costs only go up.

No, they are on probation with the company. Not a member of the union. They don’t have to be treated differently, just like they should not be treated differently while in training. But, probation is still a final gate to pass.

Nobody has to listen to anything anyone drones on about, on or off probation.

The fact is all of this is negotiated. We have made progress as far as new hires go. In the past new hires payed for their own INSURANCE and earned way less pay. That was fixed and it would be nice to get more for everyone including those that lost their retirement or are still trying to make up for the lost decade. But the company only agrees to so much.

Not necessary, cost go down for fixed expenses as growth and expansion occur. New Employees (especially those on probation that don’t get profit sharing 😳) are cheaper then old employees. New fuel efficient airplanes are cheaper to operate too.

Per ft website...

• TRASM of up 26% compared to fourth-quarter 2019.
• CASM of up 21%, and CASM-ex1 of up 11%, compared to fourth-quarter 2019.

​
And there it is. That's our expected raise for the period 2019q4 - 2022q4: 26%. CASM lags TRASM partly because our PAY lags. When you add the missing increase% from 2019q1-2023q2, that's a 30% raise DOS if you want to match TRASM% increases. And why shouldn't we? Everything has gone up by 30%. These numbers prove that Delta has a substandard deal. And of course, it's their first offer. Demand the TRASM% increase. There's no reason not to during the best negotiating position in history.

I honestly believe that with the economies of scale of actually competing with narrow body fleets, getting rid of regional jets, and having the largest training center in the world that doesn't have a square inch more of buildable space... maybe? Getting out of Willis tower was a big step. We can cap our profit sharing % like Delta but I don't see that as our major pressing issue. We have phenomenal instruction from line pilots for more of our training than any other airline in the world... how much profit sharing is that worth to you? There are give and takes everywhere.

Looking at these numbers, one thing is obvious: Profit is quarterly. Why is profit sharing yearly?

What does that mean? Seriously

So in losing quarters should we pay the company?

Simply, the profit sharing program is based on annual profits, not quarterly. ​​​​​ Wanna change the plan payout criteria, write a resolution and take it to an LEC meeting.

Hence the name profit sharing and not loss sharing.

Ahh, so negative profit sharing.

What's your position on age 67? Or on adding a funded defined benefit plan in the contract that would pay $100k/yr at DOS?

As you know I like to think I have a pretty healthy understanding of the mechanisms behind profit sharing, and I do agree with you that the percentage threshold in our language versus the fixed amount in the Delta language will definitely play more of a role going forward, but the purpose of this post is to make a minor side note relative to expenses. I have shown in the past that the single biggest factor affecting PS for us historically is the price of oil and not payroll.


This from a post I made in 2019:

Understanding and Predicting PS

Boomer! 🤣😎

Just saying everyone here seems to want the delta language for every part of our contract good or bad. We have a few things that are better than theirs like our training and reassignment language. They have more training being done by non-seniority list pilots. The profit sharing language is pretty close to deltas and I believe we have more pressing areas to negotiate like Ltd, reserve, and retirement.

What do your instructors get paid. The reason we have so many non sli’s is because there aren’t enough people interested in the job at current pay. That may change with the new contract but who knows.

Really? That's what you think about your fellow pilots? That... is sad.... BTW, I've been here 25+ years and I'd never say/think something like that.

Unfortunately this is the mindset of many pilots here at United. Anytime someone on here or other forums points out how much worse our reserve/scheduling/bidding rules are compared to even most regionals, a dozen people come out and say "they're hiring!". They completely miss the point that QOL needs to improve, and would rather just have $5/hr more with no other changes to the contract since it doesn't affect them.

There is some misconception on this thread about profit sharing in regards to the number of people in the pool. I believe this was explained in a union email a few years ago. Profit sharing is calculated as if every employee is eligible for it. That gets you the number you see. Anyone not eligible for it does not get their calculated portion paid to them. So adding employees on property less than 1 year does not dilute the pool any further.

Also, it has been standing direction since Jay Heppner was Master Chair after the merger for the MC to attempt to get PS for all pilots regardless of time on property.

You have obviously missed the point of my comment. See my previous reply to one’s similar to yours. When most of us were new-hires, the thought of b****ing about something like PS was ludicrous. Have some damned humility. You’re NEW here!

The flight attendants got 3.3574% profit sharing. Maybe we should have our crack team talk to AFA negotiators for some ideas :cool:

Just missed being in that generation😉

I tire of the me, me, me selfish BS - especially the hypocritical variety. Since the early 2000s United pilots have been shifting the contract value DOWN to the junior end of the list. This was done purposefully and has benefited every new hire. So to hear *****ing about the 'old guard' rubs me the wrong way. Without the votes of a significant number of 'old guard' pilots this airline would look very different post covid than it does now.

All the contracts build off each other. After UAL got 1hr pay above guarantee for unused SC's, DALPA was able to get 1hr credit towards guarantee on the last contract and now on this new TA get pay above guarantee. Not sure that provision would be there today if not for UAL getting it first.

Annual pensions benefits should vest $2-3k/yr starting on DOS up to a maximum of of the PBGC insured limit of $67k. I don't want to give boomers a windfall while bearing all the risk that I'll lose said pension through contract changes, bankruptcy, illness, death, divorce, etc. Boomer on his 5th wife gets 100k and I at 23 years old on my second wife need to split it among another 3 plus take on 42 years of risk to get the same? No thanks. Also, I'll take all money in excess of the insured limit in my paycheck.