NC Email
 

Thoughts ?

2 thoughts.

1) The Council 93 email made it sound as if the MEC told the NC to stick to our original proffer and not negotiate. Whether that was true or not it is clear now that we are attempting to negotiate.
2) We can expect the next meaningful update on May 1st.

Another effing week.
ALPO sucks.
SK sucks.

Get it done.
Time is money, and time is not on our side.

I hadn’t heard this part about not negotiating before. If memory serves, one of DL’s openers was 25% direct contribution to retirement. They obviously didn’t get that and I believe 3 in 4 DL pilots have demonstrated their happiness with the negotiated result they did get. Hoping for similarly fruitful negotiations for our pilot group.

I don't think your first point is necessarily correct about what "negotiating" means. You can come to the table and negotiate by refusing to capitulate and strengthening your position with facts, and that would be 100% appropriate right now. We need an impasse to get a mediator or move closer to a strike vote and another deadlocked meeting when the company refuses to meet us for an ILC is another check in the box to continue playing hardball.

Obviously we deserve an ILUPA, i’m not sure by what metric, but it needs to account for our larger pilot group at a minimum. My concern is assuming the company and union agree to a top line value that is DL plus ‘something’ in total value - I’m not convinced a mediator is going to be sympathetic to us getting even more just because we feel like we ‘deserve’ more. There is always the concern that the mediator throws the company a few ‘wins’ too.

Management does not want such a deal otherwise we would already have it.

IMHO the strategy is to draw it out into full mediation, and keep the current cost structure as long as possible.

In the meantime another Black Swan cloud arriving would become Kirby's silver lining.

I find it hysterical that pilots assume management want a recession or another black swan. Why? So they can save on pilot labor? Give me a break…they want to make money, as much as possible. They won’t during a recession etc no matter what we are paid and they will make money when times are good whether we have an ILC or not…

With friends like these...

Mgmt would love nothing more than to go to mediation. Another two year delay and everything is on the table? No thanks.

We’re not going to get more just because we feel that we deserve it. It’s going to be a hard and drawn out fight. Regardless of if we go to mediation, we’re not going to get as much as we feel that we deserve, and the company will have to pay for some things that they don’t want to. We’ll get Delta plus, but some will be upset with the amount of the overage. If the Delta deal was worth $7B, we’re not going to get $10B. Our struggle is over work rules that would limit crew productivity and increase cost from a company standpoint, but increase compensation and QOL from a pilot standpoint. Mediation and strike votes are levers to pull when we get to an impasse, and being that both sides are frequently meeting, we’re not there yet. People are understandably tired of waiting, but we also just started over fresh with a new MEC after the recall/replace process. From a negotiating standpoint we’re not years into the process, we just started over.

From the little things I’m hearing I don’t think it’s going to be impossible to negotiate to legitimate Delta plus with good work rule improvements. I do think it’s impossible to somehow envision acquiring every single individual best line item from Delta or UAL contracts while dumping every single item that is inferior. That seems to me to get us to that $3B better than Delta number and we won’t get that after any mediation either. In the meantime our retro checks are never going to get back better reserve rules or other things that are real QOL but don’t reflect in retro. Let our NC try to get it to Delta + with an AA snap up clause and if they can, let’s move on. If not, then we take the long way.

The problem is that "delta plus" means different things to different parties. It is the new term in place of "industry leading" which should be a sign that you are about to hear a hard sales job. The pay rates are easy but the cost of the work rules is what we are negotiating/debating and while managements offer is "delta plus" they are costing basic improvements to scheduling and reserve sections of the contract at absurd levels. We are also bringing certain sections up to where delta was in Ltd, profit sharing, and sick leave which brings the total cost to the company to a pretty impressive figure (an even more impressive figure with creative math if you're trying to play broke like management is.)

Delta plus is vague and a bad term to use. We should be asking for delta QOL and compensation plus something for being the last of the big 3 with a contract. American should have a TA within a few weeks and then there is us walking into a summer from hell. Fupm. Kirby tried to be cheap last summer and it bit him.

Everyone said we’d have a TA in a few weeks too. I don’t know that they’re really any closer to a deal than we are.

This summer won’t really be affected without a deal, it’s future growth plans that could be slowed without one. TK is currently at max capacity and there is no significant backlog for OE. If things do get tight this summer, they’ll just offer premium trips and people will line up to take advantage of the extra pay.

“Better” is never going to be universally agreed upon unless we match their contract line for line and then tack on some % to an easy to measure metric, and then someone still won’t like it for some reason. But I think that legit “better” as perceived by 80+% of the pilot group is hopefully achievable. If we want to measure easily should we swap to their scope and instructor wording? That might have some unintended consequences. We need improvements in many areas, no doubt about it but we shouldn’t pretend that our entire contract is a steaming pile. It will be interesting to see if the NC and mgmt make some headway.

Random thought... if/when we get a new contract, will our union dues decrease accordingly? A 30ish percent raise over the next 4ish years would mean that we are also giving the ALPA a 30 percent raise. Has ALPA addressed this? I'm guessing not...

For a 30 year old at United, this is the difference between tens of thousands of dollars over the course of a career.

The Big 3 execs have this guy spreading the word that pilot salaries are unsustainable. No mention of how sustainable / unsustainable airline executive salaries are. Hmmmm...
Pilot salaries
I'd call the author a tool, but that would imply he's useful.

Read the comments too, most will infuriate you… unbelievable how clueless some people are. Who would be ok to work under rules agreed to 10 years ago and without a raise for 5 years? Not to mention the additional Delta and United cost for 1Q was mostly to cover retro payments, no mention of this anywhere.

I bet they appreciate you getting them more clicks and therefore advertising dollars.

you do understand how percentage math works - right?

He’s right. Any % increase in our pay rates, results in an equivalent increase in the dues received by ALPA. Depending on the exchange rate at the time that’s a large amount of gross tonnage in steak and cake.

horses and carts, let’s get a contract first so we actually have that problem

Win dumbest quote of the day.

Do you think after Sept 11th and captain were making $136/hr they raised it 2x to make up?? Wake up

No, but it doesn’t appear that you understand math. I was pointing out that that guy was correct. A 30% increase in pay rates results in a 30% increase in the amount of dues that ALPA takes in, unless they reduce the dues rate.

Heres a couple of questions for you to ponder. If the raise is 30% how much increase is the FPL that has to be paid out for reps working. I’ll give you a hint…30%.

One more question for you. Do you think that you could have negotiated better rules and pay on your own or without a union? Then the ~1% is worth it…

It boggles my mind that a 30 year old would be concerned about the 1% over the duration of their career. Like holy heck do you think you’re so good you could do better? Lol. Pilots are a dumb lot…

Yes, you’ve cracked the scam. But here’s what I can do for you:

For the sake of illustration, let’s assume a total value of 40% in wages & QOL improvements from a new UPA. Once the contract goes into effect, send me 40% of every paycheck you earn. I will in turn refund to you every penny of the 1.2% of that amount (minus a nominal convenience fee) taken by the union. To be clear, you’ll be receiving your full current compensation plus the increase in dues lost due to a new contract!!! Like you said, over a course of a decades long career, this could total tens of thousands of dollars!!! Best of all, this deal is completely legal!

For a limited time only, this offer is being made available to all United pilots. Work smarter, not harder, guys…

Nice try… but I gave no opinion on whether the increase in dues would be well spent, only that the math was correct. Now, if you think that there is no gross waste in a bureaucratic quagmire like, ALPA, I’ve got some oceanfront property that I’ve been looking to offload. PM me for details. Low 7-figures.

Ummm yes, do you??? How did you become a professional pilot without understanding how percentages work :D

Imagine a pilot is making $200/hr and paying 1.5% in union dues. He is paying $3/hr to the union. Now assume he gets a 30% raise, and union dues are still 1.5%. he is making $260/hr, and paying $3.90 in union dues. Let me know if you need any more help with 7th grade math :)

And to the people saying this is too small an amount of money to worry about, please feel free to send me a tiny fraction of your paycheck every month.

A typical united NB captain is paying in the ballpark of $4000/year in union dues. Lets say a 30% raise would equate to about $1200/yr extra in dues. A 35 year old would pay $36,000 over the course of a 30 year career. And if that money was invested in a s&p fund returning 7% a year, that comes out to about 77k.

I knew pilots were bad with money, but sheesh you guys are something else!

Would you prefer we have no union? is that what you are saying?

You realize that the dues go toward paying ALPA volunteers to do work on your behalf. Safety committee, security committee, hotel committee, etc, etc. ALPA pays them the same rate to do the work they do. So, if our rate goes up, so does the expense of operating the union.

it’s not Skywest high school board
this is a union shop and we have no issue paying union dues
you knew that when you applied didn’t you ?

Where did I say I would prefer no union? I believe I was just asking if the issue had been addressed. Btw, volunteers don't get paid. I believe that is in the definition. ;)

Of course a portion of the union dues go towards paying certain union salaries, and as a result, our dues should increase a certain amount. But a portion of our dues also goes towards paying rent at union HQ, paying the bills, various campaign efforts, etc. These are fixed costs and should not go up. But yes, by all means, lets increase union dues to 69% of our salary!!! Steak and lobster for all the chairs! Why not, anything less would be anti union!!!!

My thoughts exactly!!! Hahaha, big face palm reading that comment….

Union volunteers get paid but also volunteer a tremendous amount of time. I have friend on an MEC committee and he spends 10-20 hours a week unpaid answering emails, writing updates, putting out fires, etc. When he has to travel on union business he gets paid by the union. But rest assured he aint getting rich on the union dime. In fact, as I understand it, union pay is considered add pay kind of like vacation. So, if he is underwater on his pay, he cant even pick up a trip to make more because he will end up working for free for a portion of that trip.

Hey math boy, when United furloughs in the next ten years, and they will, should they raise the rates becasue they don't have as many people paying in?? Or worse, pilots take pay cuts due to some catastrophe should they raise rates above 2%??

Fair point! But what percentage of the time are the airlines in "downturns"? We have a lot more good/mediocre years than bad years :)

But I still stand by my statement, any discussion of lowering union dues is TREASON and must mean that person is a SCAB!!!!!!

So we're just going to ignore record inflation and cost of living increases? Please share how you've managed not to suffer any increases in your living expenses for the past decade or so.

If the shoe fits buddy.

I am guessing you were hire post 2010!

Say what? Are you a 570, lol?

You are all dancing around the math. He is complaining that he has to pay union dues and doesn't want to own up to it.

Yes, it's an expense, but well worth it. I get back much more than I would if I wasn't paying dues and didn't have a union. That is the question, is it worth it? Yes, it is.