Delta also did a poll of their pilots every 6 weeks during negotiations. Most pilots cannot be bothered to communicate with their reps - while also b!tching their reps aren’t representing them - and then turn around and b!tch when reps make the initiative to learn what that lazy pilot wants by reaching out via a just minutes long poll.

Not specifically at you LJ Driver, but most pilots should be happy the MEC is trying. Or maybe they just want to b!tch YMMV.

I use different definitions of "going first". Back in 2015 Delta went first but was the last to get a contract. They went first because they got a TA that was voted down by the pilots. That singular event sent pattern bargaining in motion because it established what was insufficient, It set the lower boundary. UAL did the same thing this time around(went first) as Delta did last round. We set the lower limit by turning down the Tumi TA, and Delta used that as a springboard (and the CEO flapping his gums on CNBC thereby irritating the mediator) to get a contract. Now AA has used the Delta contract as a new lower limit, and hopefully we will reap the rewards when we finally ink the last deal this contract cycle.

Semantics? Possibly. But the logic seems pretty sound as far as pattern bargaining.

Nonetheless, I have no problems with the polling, especially since a lack of polling contributed to the Tumi TA debacle and disenfranchised 4000 new(ish) hired pilots due to lack of input(concern) by the established junta. When you know best, who needs input from the proletariat?:eek:

I suppose it does depend on your definition of first.

- United
- American
- Alaska?
- Allegiant?
- Spirit?
- Delta
- American again
- Westjet?

It may be a bit different as I’m loosely going off memory but since our initial POS TA came out last summer around 7 others have also been released. This doesn’t even include regionals.

Semantics, indeed. I’d say “setting the lower limit” is a very generous way of framing our colosal failure, but your timeline is off. Remember, Delta already had their TA by the time we actually got around to voting on ours. Our no vote was nothing more than us cleaning up our own mess, & absolutely no one “spring-boarded” off of us.

No I think my timing is pretty accurate.. The unmitigated disaster was the first rim shot which was almost 1 year ago in Jun 2022 if I'm not mistaken. It was such a colossal failure they held the vote in abeyance until almost 6 months later. That set the bar for what was unacceptable on the lower end with the sky being the limit on the top end. UAL was essentially leading the charge in pattern bargaining(not an enviable position usually). I see it as pattern bargaining off the initial spring board that UAL set. Numerous carriers easily inked deals better than our first turd sandwich. UAL is basically mimicking what Delta went through in 2015 which was TA turn down, recalls, new plan of attack(took a year)

Nonetheless, my real point was, there is nothing wrong with phone polling. Their lack of even including 4000 pilots and their thoughts was a template for automatic failure when bringing forth such a weak initial TA(as we lead the pack)

Well Delta's 2015 NO vote definitely didn't give any benefit for us with pattern bargaining since this pilot group decided to renew our concessionary contract.

To say we set any kind of bar with TUMI is laughable. No one needed us to come out with that TA in order to move forward in their negotiations. We wasted time & offered nothing to the profession, plain & simple.

Again, a little history: it was AA management’s offer to their pilots to exceed our TUMI contract that first turned the tide of opinion against TUMI here at UAL- followed by DAL’s TA. (Absent those 2 factors, I’m not even positive it wouldn’t have passed here.) By the time we finally voted on our TA, we absolutely were pattern bargaining off of them- not the other way around.

I would love to be in the room when you tell a bunch of DAL/AA pilots they’re free to thank you for “establishing a floor of what was acceptable”!

this ^^^^^^