DAL To UAL
 

I’m a relatively new Delta pilot. I commute from Denver and I’m considering applying to United because I’m miserable commuting and don’t see myself doing it for the rest of my career, and I don’t want I leave Denver.

Can you tell me what overtime/open time pay looks like at United? Is it similar to Delta’s green slip callouts (calls go down seniority order, double pay for trip coverage)? Where would a 30 year old be on the seniority list in 5,10,15 years if they were hired in the next 6 months? How quickly can you go from a new hire drop of IAH 737 to Denver? How long does a move from narrow body to wide body typically take with a new hire seat lock? Any juicy rumors on new contract QOL improvements? Anything else you think I should consider?

Appreciate any info, thanks!

At this point, why does Delta hire anyone in Denver and United hire anyone in Atlanta?

Should be able to hold DEN very quickly. Without looking, one, maaaybe two vacancies.

**** if I know. Desperation? Does UAL run vacancies every month, quarter (like DAL) or something else?

this a no brainer. Go to ual yesterday. There isn’t a seat lock like at delta, you can bid widebody in Denver as soon as you can hold it and not have to wait 2 years. You’ll also become a true widebody captain much sooner and for much longer at ual as opposed to delta. Just go. Don’t even think about it.

Thanks! Do you know roughly how long DEN wide body FO and/or CA would take at the moment?

Are you me? Literally facing this same dilemma right now. "there must be dozens of us"

Den is a small 787 base. Wb fo is relatively senior

Exactly, it's going to be a while before you can hold WB FO in Den unless you become a sim instructor.
There were several unfilled 320 CA spots in the last vacancy (they've been putting out vacancy bids every 4-5 weeks).

Hah, I know of at least one more. I just got SLC in the AE so that might be a bit better, but it’s a more competitive commute so it’ll probably still suck.

Thanks! I’m on the 320 now, I’d be perfectly happy as a 320 FO or CA. You can’t bid for CA in your first year at UA, right?

Correct, both CA and sim instructor require you to be off probation (1 yr) and both are easy to get right now. A new contract with improved work rules may change that though.
Hopefully you're aware of the reserve rules here, as they are much worse than where you're at now. Living in base will reduce that pain though.

There are LOADS of UAL pilots who commute out of ATL. We could open an ATL base and have it staffed tomorrow.

I’m aware of them in a hazy way. I know they’re worse, but not specifics. I don’t know much about reroutes either. I figure either way it’s probably better to be in base and deal with it while I’m junior than commute for the rest of my life. Any idea if the new contract might address QOL?

setting reserve in Base is great. That’s what our reserve rules are biuilt for….they are not built for commuters.

you can hold 320 CA in Denver after 1st year. It will be another 8 or so to hold a line.

Well American has been hiring plenty of us Denver residents with success. I personally love living in Denver, but I’m surprised to read someone is “locked down” to the Mile High city. It’s called California East for unfortunate reasons. Denver is notorious for having “touch and go” residents who spend a few years then dip.

If you’re curious why the OP is desperately requesting UAL DEN upgrade times go look at what 500k gets you for a place. You’ll be asking yourself, “is that a house or just an expensive dumpster with a roof attached?”

Personally I love Denver, but Denver also means a ~2 hr radius around the city itself and there’s a lot of awesome in that circle that’s hard to find in some other large hubs.

You won’t have anywhere near the income earning opportunity as DAL has with the green slip system and reserve rules at UAL are terrible. Unless you absolutely have to live in DEN, I’d probably consider moving to SLC and staying at DAL before applying to United.

Come on over! Work where you want to live is the golden rule assuming you have more than one option.

I just finished Indoc and turned 32 last month. Projected to retire at 1,067 overall currently. Assuming nobody died and we stopped hiring, company-wide i'm looking at 5 years - 81%, 10 years - 61%, 15 years - 46%. I'm fortunate/unfortunate enough to live close to SFO though, so life is a bit easier seniority-wise.

regarding Big 3, go to the one where you can drive to work. all the "extras" offered by the other two will not out-weigh the drive to work.

Not if you live closer to DIA. Half that will get you something decent further east.

Not everyone wants to live in an urban area, especially with all the strife that the cities have gone through since 2020. I certainly don't

Great? They are tolerable when living in base but I wouldn’t call them great.

The question is how much you trust Scott Kirby to deliver on his promises of United Next, and not to run the place into the ground. The last two weeks don't look promising. It's still a poorly run company.

Plus, you said yourself you'll have to commute at United until you can hold DEN (which I understand is a fairly senior base there). You didn't say where you're commuting to at DAL, but there's a big difference between commuting from DEN to NYC or ATL and commuting to SLC or SEA. Or move closer to a base. You'll probably make more over your career and have more stability at Delta.

None of us can tell you what to do, but I'd say starting over now at what may be the end of the hiring boom may not be a wise idea. You surely have 1000 or more people behind you at Delta by now if you're flying the line.

“The question is how much you trust Scott Kirby to deliver on his promises of United Next, and not to run the place into the ground. The last two weeks don't look promising. It's still a poorly run company.”

This^^^^^

Stay at Delta. United will always trail them operationally and financially.

Avoid the ‘grass is greener’ temptation.

Unlimited short call and field standby conversions are great? Rolled days off are great? False.

Would not recommend anyone going to United with the expectation of great quality of life living in base on reserve.

If you define 86hr lines with no consistent ability to trip trade/drop trips great, and unlimited reserve conversions and random reserve call outs at scheduling discretion when they have other people available to cover the flights then sure United is the place to be.

Senior to hold 787 CA. But it will just take one, maybe two vacancy bids to get NB FO and we’ve been having monthly bids lately. There’s also unfilled NB CA vacancies if you want to go that route once off probation. It’s been said many times before in other threads, but not really in this one- Having the training center in Denver opens up tons of opportunities if you want to be home every night as well as the hundreds of local instructors that will buy you off trips. Giving you more time at home or allowing you to double dip.

Our reserve rules do suck, but living in base helps. You’ll get a lot of opinions on here but it’s up to you if giving up some seniority and probable career earnings is worth never having to commute again.

Otterbox I know you hate our reserve rules and if you are a commuter our rules are definitely worse than the competition. Lord know we need improvements in the work rules for reserves, I doubt anyone would argue that. That being said, being a local dramatically changes the suffering. Getting converted to SC when you live an hour from the airport just means you have to take your cell phone with you when you leave the house. I do that anyway. It also means you will have to cut back on your day drinking, but again I have been trying to do that as well. It doesn't cost you a hotel and will hopefully even pay you a little more in the theoretical new contract.

As a local, picking up a SC to avoid a trip you don't want can be a very effective tactic to maximize your nights in your own bed. When you get a line and assuming we get a contract some day, you also have the advantage of picking up premium that comes available on shorter notice. Commuters are often unable to do this as the premium trip is leaving too soon to commute in for the trip.

I have done literally years on reserve as a local and while I mostly bid lines, I will bid reserve to get the schedule I want ( IE bidding HDOs over Christmas when I am not senior enough to hold a line with it off) So, If given a choice between commuting to one of AA/DL/UA or living in base for one of the carriers, there is no amount of anything else that matters, you go with the one that has a base where you live. You will make more money and spend more nights in your own bed by enormous amounts when you live local.

If you are a new hire at DL but are going to live in DEN then you switch to UA - period! If you are a new hire at UA but are going to live in ATL then you switch to DL - period. These times allow this "switching" to happen very quickly so there is not usually much loss of seniority. This is not a statement on an overall comparison of the two companies, it is just common sense.

you should take a look at some other seats but yours…..My QOL has never been better. I don’t give a rats about SC and FSB is an easy 4 hours.

iv been with my kids more this summer than I ever have at any airline. Living in base within an hour of the airport is key.

This right here, every day all day…

I have lived in base with a 30min drive. I have transcon commuted. It is only part of the decision.

I went to the place I felt I would have the best career and long term security. Den has TK at UA, huge good deal if you want to do that. Outside of that consideration, I am happier be a DL commuter from another airlines pilot base.

Commuting is the devil to some. Not to all. I like options.

Sure, ok, sell yourself on a bad choice. I just feel
bad for the pilots who read this nonsense and make career-long decisions based on it.

ah. Soft ridicule. Such a good argument. You sound like the prima donna military guys who waltz off active duty to airline of their choice and are so put out by having a real job.

If I had to live in or near one of our bases I’d find a new job.

We all have reasons for why we live where we live and why we do/don’t commute. One man’s “great QOL” is another man’s misery.

I'm glad to see this thread because I am in a similar boat.

OP, If I was you I would go to United. Until now I have always lived in base. As a new hire at Delta, I've been having to commute. Its only been a couple months, but I already hate it. It feels like hell compared to what I'm used to, which is home in 40 minutes after stepping off the plane. According to the APC numbers, between now and 2040, Delta will have 6,900 retirements while United will have 8900 retirements. You'll be fine at United when it comes to seniority.

Now as for my predicament.
I originally wanted United but Delta came through for me first. I was already in training at Delta when United invited me to an interview, and they gave me a class date which is coming up. I live in NYC so commuting isn't an issue for me either way. I have 2 major questions:

1. Friends at United are telling me that United wants 28,000 pilots on property by 2030??? That sounds ridiculous and kind of impossible but is it true that that is what they are saying? Is there a solid basis for that or is it just company propaganda? I'm aware I would have better seniority at United long term, but even if that is half true that would be a game changer.
2. My other "pro" in the case for United, is that my impression is that they are relatively more progressive/less resistant to change. Is this true? I am basing this based on word of mouth, their bolder DEI policies, their allowing more individual expression in their flight attendant uniform policies and a history of not being afraid to be the first airline to change/take action. (while Delta always goes for more of a "wait and see what everyone else does" approach. Does my impression have some truth to it, or am I off base?
This one is important to me because... for various reasons I don't exactly fit the traditional old school cookie cutter pilot mold. Pilots are a very homogenous bunch, and some of them can be very "gatekeepy" about it and have some rather inflexible ideas about what it means to be a professional pilot. It is extremely important to me to work someplace long term where I will run into the least resistance and most acceptance. I'm good at what I do, I have a good attitude, but I've only been at Delta a few months and I've already run into a few uncomfortable situations with other pilots. Is it likely to be better for my at United in this regard?

Thank you all!!

I never heard of 28,000 pilots. There was talk about 18,000 pilots for the last 7-8 years. It looks like we may get there by 2026 or so.

DAL strikes me as more conservative for sure. Not sure that UAL is a liberal heaven of self expression though.

one thing is for sure though - DAL is the best managed and most profitable major. I doubt that UAL will ever match them.

28000? Sounds pretty far fetched. UAL is about 4500 into hiring the 10000 they wanted to by the end of the decade.

UAL as a company is more progressive than DAL. Like most airlines, the pilot group isn’t as progressive as the company (but gets more progressive as younger people are hired and older pilots medical out/retire) but there’s a lot of diversity in UALs pilot group. UAL is probably more diverse than any other US airline (Hawaiian has the highest% of female pilots but UAL has the most # wise apparently) and second to JetBlue in progressiveness as corporate culture.

20,000 is what I was told.

HAH! That's actually the number that I originally typed, but then I went back to my United friends text and saw 28,000. 18,000 is still incredible though. It seems too good to be true? Every airline is saying they all are planning on "growth", but they cant all grow significantly at the same time. I know they want are growing the fleet, but where is the growth in routes and passengers going to come from?

Also, interesting to hear that my outside impression of the general culture is fairly correct! Thanks again!

United will have 1100 mainline fleet by 2028
907 today with 16000 pilots

so 200 more aircraft will be equivalent to about 1900 pilots since the WB aircraft will be a little higher than today and around 225 787s, 777s 767s by 2028

the rest are BS I think

how many planes parked by 2028?