Hardly undiscussed. Don’t get me wrong I think it’s hugely important we preserve the quality of the NBFO seat. The 1 year upgrade can’t last forever & when it does eventually dry up, NBFO needs to work as a career- not just a job you can slug out for a few months until a quick upgrade comes along.

My argument has always been that if the market is providing us a singular opportunity to make additional gains in one limited area, why not strike while that iron is hot? (If there were similar market pressures on the company to make bigger improvements to WBFO, NBFO, etc, I’d be making the same argument.) I’m for fighting the winnable battles to make bigger gains over time. The problem is, it’s very difficult to give some people more without also creating the perception that you’re giving other people less, & so we often (my opinion) shoot ourselves in the foot with this type of “everyone gets it or no one gets it” mentality.

Bottom line, the idea seems pretty unpopular among pilots, and thus, never was a great solution to pursue politically. In my opinion, it would have been a far better solution (for us) than allowing forced upgrades, but very few people seem to have a problem with that idea, so what do I know? At any rate, the next time we’re in negotiations, the company will have zero incentive to make NB upgrade desirable, so the ship has kind of sailed- its all just conceptual at this point.

Not quite related but in the new ta how much vacation is awarded to year 1 ? At American I believe they got 3 weeks to start

Edit: the right answer is below.

UA
Year 1-5 14 Days
Year 6-10 21 Days
Year 11-24 35 days
Year 25+ 42 Days

AA
Starts at 21 Days, reaches 35 days by year 20 and stops there according to the contract comparison.

Just curious but how did this not get matched to aa in the new ta then ... it's like crickets in terms of industry leading ...

It’s industry leading on the top end and seniority rules all at United. Don’t worry young chap, you’ll be senior one day! But it will probably be two years later than you expected…

Uhhh… 35 days at year 11. Do you really wanna match DL and AA there??

That’s excellent and pretty far from “top end” seniority.

You should read the contract comparison. You won’t be able to decipher some of it because you don’t work here, but it will give you a better sense of what the relative provisions are. It’s a public site: upa23.com

What you are experiencing is the effect of fast upgrades. You are at 70% and at that % you are just off reserve and get jammed with the most flying. I’m not being rude but how long have you been at UAL. Upgrading doesn’t mean a QOL improvement. The pilots that are at 70% in the right seat of the NB are getting similar schedules to you.

Look at those planning tables in the FPA for a double augmented flight. Notice all that gray hair in the FO seats you understand they probably all have been junior NB captains at some point in their career. They broke the code.

In the past it wasn’t until you were a senior WB FO that you could hold NB CA. However the rapid growth has skewed the matrix. If you don’t like being junior bid to a senior seat. Being a CA isn’t always sunshine and rainbows.

Age 67 will exacerbate your predicament. No movement out the top stagnates everyone. Bid off now before the age traps you for 2 years would be my thoughts.

This job is for income and family security. Work doesn’t have to be fun. It doesn’t mean it can’t be but don’t rely on your job for your happiness. Enjoy it and accept the good with the bad.

Labor contracts are all apples to oranges comparisons to the point “industry leading” has never been a measurable standard. That’s why executives love to use the term- it can’t be factually verified. If you look at the contract comparisons, there’s not really anything you could claim we’re objectively leading the industry on. Indeed, most of the major gains in this TA- like bridge to LTD- are actually bringing us up to a standard we currently fall significantly behind. For the most part, it’s an industry match w/ just enough money sprinkled on top to be able to make that “industry leading” claim, which is exactly what SK meant when he said it in the first place.

Personally I’m less concerned about where we are failing to lead, and more so where we are creating new industry standards in the wrong direction; but I’ve made no secrets about that…