Could United merge with part of Jet Blue
 

Could United buy JB's 220 operation?

Assume some suitor wants JB but not all of it. Could United buy the 220 operation? 220 rated pilots come to United. Rest go to Alaska or whoever. FA's I guess would just have to bid. Probably would get a chunk of JFK slots also.

Advantages
1) United gets SNB with increased regional scope
2) Doesn't trigger Bond-McCaskill
3) Fencing is simpler with no type overlap between UAL and JB crews
4) less anti-trust concern
5) United throws cash at the big deal, making it easier to deal with debt/acquisition costs

I think there's some precedent here with PanAm. Not quite sure of the details.

My favorite movie quote from the Billy Madison movie:

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

So you’re saying maybe. hehe

i’m glad we have people like you on this board

You should bring this up at the next board of directors meeting.

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhh………Could you provide the name of the AME on your medical certificate please?



You DO KNOW they are ALPA right?

What happened to the random drug testing??

Can we give the JB merger thing a rest, please? It’s fun to speculate, but it’s gotten old

I think if United wanted a fleet of A220s, they would have gotten themselves a fleet of 220s. Adding a new type has inherent extra costs - one of the reasons so many airlines (Alaska, SWA, Frontier, Spirit, and others) have avoided diversifying their fleets. Even when Alaska bought Virgin, they got rid of the Airbuses as soon as economically feasible. For United adding another - particularly lower paying fleet, would be an open invitation for anybody hired into the A220 to break their seat lock by bidding into something paying better.

that not only increases training costs for newbies but rather dramatically increases training costs in the event of furloughs, displacements, or base closures.

and without a doubt it is, 100%, without any uncertainty, not happening.

Unless I’m misunderstanding your #1, merging or buying JetBlue’s A220 does not unlock scope at UAL and allow for more 76 seaters. Per the UPA, it has to be a in house order for the 220-100 or other NSNB to unlock those additional 76 seaters.

Maybe they buy the 220’s and open up a wholly owned regional with them. After the FAs ratify their TA, of course.

Most of the PanAm purchases were no pilots. Only the Honolulu operation did we bring them on with the planes. It was a separate division of PanAm with their unique structure, unlike now where its one airline.

Also McCaskill Bond is irrelevant. We use ALPA merger policy. With a less than 50% acquisition we would take no employees.

I highly doubt United would want the 220 operation because the goal is to upgauge and not downgauge. I can't imagine that would be cost effective at our mainline wages for all employee groups working it.

What happened to ALPA’s fragmentation policy, which (at the time) was essentially intended to be used for asset sales where only part of an operation was transferred—including routes, slots, gates, aircraft, and associated flying—as opposed to situations where essentially the entire operation was acquired or merged?

The ALPA fragmentation policy was very different then from merger policy.

By contrast, ALPA merger policy was intended to apply when all or substantially all of an operation was acquired or combined, triggering a full integration of pilot groups and seniority lists.

At least at the time, the distinction was relatively clear:

• Fragmentation policy → partial transfers of assets and flying (routes, slots, gates, aircraft
• Merger policy → acquisition or merger of essentially the entire operation

Needless to say a fragmentation seniority integration was far different from a true merger seniority negation. Fragmentation used to be an official ALPA policy what happened to ALPA’s fragmentation policy?

It's still there. Section 45, Merger and Fragmentation Policy of the Administrative Manual. But the integration of any pilots acquired as part of fragmentation looks like it is generally handled in the same manner as a merger.

What does the JetBlue CBA say about fragmentation? Most modern pilot agreements involve the rights of members to transfer with the acquired assets.

From the UPA:

1-E Other Labor Protective Provisions
If the Company disposes of or transfers to an air carrier (the “Transferee”) (by sale, lease or other transaction, whether directly or indirectly through an Affiliate or lessor or vendor to the Transferee) either (i) seventy-five percent (75%) or more of the gates and other facilities used in Company Flying at any Company Hub or (ii) aircraft or route authority which produced fifteen percent (15%) or more of the Company’s operating revenues, block hours, or ASMs during the twelve (12) months immediately prior to the date of the agreement to transfer such aircraft or route authority (the “Transaction Date”), net of revenues, block hours or ASMs that are produced by aircraft or route authority that were placed into service during the same period (any such transfer, a “Substantial Asset Sale”), then:

1-E-1 Offer of Employment to United Pilots.
The Company shall require the Transferee to offer pilot employment to eligible United Pilots. The eligibility criteria shall be determined by agreement between the Company and the Association and shall be reasonably related to the assets transferred, the interests of the United Pilots and the Company, and the nature and timing of the transaction among other issues. If the Association and the Company are unable to agree upon eligibility criteria that are consistent with the foregoing considerations, the System Board of Adjustment shall determine such eligibility criteria pursuant to the expedited procedures set forth in Section 1-K-1 (the “Transferring Pilots”). The number of pilot employment opportunities for Transferring Pilots shall be, as measured in the twelve (12) months prior to the Transaction Date, the sum of (i) the average monthly Pilot staffing actually utilized in the operation of the aircraft transferred to the Transferee in connection with the Substantial Asset Sale plus (ii) the average monthly Pilot staffing actually utilized in the operation of the route authority transferred to the Transferee in connection with the Substantial Asset Sale to the extent such Pilot staffing is not included in the calculation of clause (i) above. Offers of employment that are rejected by a United Pilot shall in turn be offered to other United Pilots under the eligibility criteria determined under this Section 1-E-1, until such opportunities have been exhausted.

1-E-2 Seniority Integration
The Company shall require the Transferee to provide the Transferring Pilots with the seniority integration rights provided in the McCaskill-Bond Statute and Sections 3 and 13 of the AlleghenyMohawk LPPs except that the integration of the Transferring pilots into the Transferee’s seniority list shall be governed by Association Merger Policy if both pre-transaction Pilot groups are represented by the Association. The Company shall require each Transferee to provide the seniority integration rights specified in the preceding sentence in connection with a Substantial Asset Sale in a written document enforceable against the Transferee by the Association and/or the Transferring Pilots.

Thank you.

When PanAm sold its Pacific operation to United only some pilots came, how were they integrated? When PanAm sold its Atlantic operation to Delta only some pilots came. A310 (small Airbus Widebody 2 pilot but had yokes) and some 727 pilots for the shuttle operation, how were they integrated?

I know in the Delta deal no 747 pilots got to go to Delta (by far the most senior PanAm pilots).

Clearly you never heard of the Dirty Thirty! 30 747 pilots got near instant 727 requals and came over.

ALPA Fragmentation policy is ONLY used if employees are brought over. There is no requirement to bring over employees if less than 50% of the total asset value of an airline is being purchased, per Federal Law. So even if United bought some gates/planes etc, United doesn't have to take employees and certainly won’t.

Its not going to happen. The most United would buy would be some JFK slots, but they are already getting them from the partnership.

Its not relevant. United is not a party to the CBA between Jetblue and the Jetblue pilots, so United doesn't have to honor it. Its generally a meaningless clause.

United took the Hawaii 747 pilots and integrated them Date of Hire. There were not that many of them and they were fenced on the 747s and replaced with United pilots as they retired. I think they were all gone by the late 90s. It was worth it because United pilots could be based in Honolulu almost immediately.

We still have legacy PanAm flight attendants that are HNL based.

I missed the no merger clause. But it says "acquired through merger or acquisition of another air carrier"

This would be an asset purchase, as noted above. Still think the company and union would be smart to bring the pilots.

And yes, upgauging is the win, but having enough 76 seaters to kill the 450/550 is upgauging too. There's a big hole in the system between 50 and 150 seats.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/qiZVB2xsc...oss-geller.gif

I hope Jetblue buys only a single WB CA named FriendlyPilot and stick him on permanent airport standby in SDQ flying the C402. After all, the UAL CBA is irrelevant.

That's actually more likely than United buying Jetblue.

Not saying they won't but they are not required to take pilots, just like United didn't have to take any Southwest pilots when it bought 19 737-700s in 2019 from them.

Hold on a sec Friendly. You're comparing apples and potatoes. Some on the thread are discussing the purchase of all or part of a struggling airline. You're referring to airplanes that were coming off lease at SWA and were for sale outright by a leasing company. The leasing company was selling them, why would pilots be involved? I'm not sure how your statement proves anything.

Those airplanes never actually entered the fleet anyway.

I’m the last guy that would want any type of merger, acquisition, or partial acquisition, as I was hired there last decade and here this decade. I would need to talk to my AME to help me through the approved lists of anti depressants.

As some have noted there may have been some cases in the 70’s where such instances took place, but there is no way such a thing would happen in 2026…..however prudent a business move it might seem to be.

I see one area in particular which would be troublesome which is ALPA administrative manual, Section 45.G.5.b

Which basically says that the merger committee and representatives shall try to keep in mind some collective goals….(b) Avoid windfalls for one group at the expense of the other.

Currently at JetBlue what we call a Vacancy bid only contractual has to occur once a year, however pilots can change their B E S just like we can. Since the A220 compensates roughly 10% less per flight hour (all other things being equal) it tends to be more junior. Pretty certain that Junior pilots at JetBlue would be getting a windfall at the expense of pilots senior to them.

Perhaps we shouldn’t have bullied you for your suggestion. At least I apologize …….but it is very unlikely to happen I think.

Most of Jetblue's A-220s are leased as well. Also their successorship clause is only in effect if over 25% of ASMs are transferred, which the entire A-220 fleet is not that many ASMs. So its a moot point.

I don't know how this whole conversation is even relevant, because its not going to happen.

It wasn't the 70’s. United bought PanAm’s Pacific operation in 1985 and Delta bought the Atlantic in 1991.

What you’re referring to above referencing the A220 is exactly what occurred with Pan Am in Delta’s Atlantic acquisition. By far, the most senior airplane at PanAm was the 747. The A310 was relatively junior and there weren’t that many 727’s and it was the most junior airplane. Other than the 30 pilots referred to in a previous post above (that nearly instantaneously re qualified on the 727 off of the 747). The vast majority of PanAm pilots they went to Delta in the acquisition were relatively junior.

As ragged out as the 737 -700s are, I wish they could return them. I hate it I see one on my sked .

It seems you are very familiar with the nuances......notwithstanding the more recent one still is over 30 years ago. A lot of mergers and acquisitions have taken place since then as such more recent precedents have been set. Certainly an acquisition of JetBlue is possible, a partial acquisition of one of their fleets and a part of their pilot groups is significantly less so.

filler

Agreed.

You are mistaken.

They both are rather unlikely given the limited benefit of either thing.

Correct, if the JetBlue pilot contract has a fragmentation clause and an asset sale meets the terms the sale can’t proceed unless the pilots go with the aircraft. If the purchasing airline refused to take the pilots the sale could not proceed. United could of course refuse and the sale would be negated. Integration would be per ALPA merger policy.

430 pilots came over from Pan Am in the 1985 Pacific acquisition by United. 426 of them were senior to me so I dropped back on the seniority list by that number. Seniority integration by date-of-hire. Still, it was the best thing for the UAL group as it opened up flying we never would have seen.

Pan Am 747s and L-1011s came to UAL with this purchase.

Bob Crandall, American's CEO at the time, was approached before United, but turned it down. He later said it was one of his biggest mistakes.

As I recall the announcement of the acquisition occurred either just before or during the 30-day cooling off period prior to the 1985 pilot strike.

Should be required reading for every airline pilot. Goes into detail on this.

https://www.amazon.com/Hard-Landing-...s%2C214&sr=8-1

why do you know this?

United doesn’t seem to want the 220 or any similar sized aircraft. If they did they could order max7’s and not have to deal with the expense of adding a fleet type. I’m sure at this point that it will be certified before a merger/acquisition got settled. Any type of merger would also take years and if UA wanted 220’s they could simply order them and get them configured from the factory and avoid the expense, time, and mess. At the end of the day JetBlue doesn’t really have anything that UA wants or needs outside of the JFK slots.

why 220 and why blue 220’s is a very fair question.



but just acquiring the planes & pilots would -not- be a big messy systems integration. All the things kirby (rightly) identifies as merger problems don’t apply.