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Originally Posted by slammer1906
(Post 1244590)
So, all new hires at L-CAL, who now have senority numbers, will ALL get furloughed due to returning L-UAL folks? That just sounds like bad info. Can someone else confirm this?
Therefore we still have approximately 1,000 pilots waiting in the wings not to mention the 400 or so now at LCAL who are STILL furloughed from LUAL. Wee have 300+ very senior voluntary furloughs who when they come back will be rightfully returning to their wide body captains seat which puts a major plug in at the top of the list as well. BTW only 15 of those guys are currently at LCAL so that leaves over 285 of them waiting to be recalled. So LCAL for arguments sake starts hiring in October. We sign a JCBA at some point in the future lets say December. All of sudden these non LUAL guys who were hired in Oct, Nov and Dec have 1,000+ pilots pouring in on top of them. You the unlucky new hire will be squished into the the very very deepest bottom of the seniority list for the foreseeable future. now we have the slightest mouse fart in the economy and history tells us UAL will furlough like crazy it's a cultural thing here. Guess where Mr. new hire winds up? On the street for say a short decade? Roll the dice and take your chances here at UCH my friend. But don't say you weren't warned. |
I would think furloughs highly unlikely in any event, remember:
1.December 12th is rapidly approaching and LUAL has not adequately planned for it, as usual, 2. If the work rules end up like I think they are, LUAL, then LCO will immediately need a couple of hundred more bodies just to stay even These two factors seem to point to continued hiring for the forseable future, but I've been wrong before. |
Originally Posted by CheapFlyer
(Post 1244592)
Someone please show me a time that an airline furloughed a junior person for the sole reason to bring back a senior person.
That is exactly what AirHoss is predicting. BTW: I understand the situation regarding recalls at UAL versus new hire opportunity at CAL. I don't know why you think I can't get it thru my "thick skull". BECAUSE this is the first time in the history of the US airline industry that this situation has occurred. This is virgin ground. |
Originally Posted by ChrisJT6
(Post 1244620)
Let me understand...you want me to believe that all of the sudden you have this deep sensitivity to sUAL furloughee's plight? You don't have a clue what each and every one of us has endured...why do I say this? Because you don't me or many other furloughees and what we've had to do to survive. Senior UAL pilots boned us and if that wasn't good enough...you want to call many "short sighted and so stupid". Many airlines shared the pain during the worst recession in ages by working with management to save jobs via a reduction in hours. That was unions sharing the pain from a recession not created by UAL, but UAL ALPA leaders/pilots said no...hid there greed and disconcern for junior pilots via a couragous "we won't take any more concessions". Those actions have done more to divide the sUAL pilot group (if you include the furloughees) than any management ploy could have dreamed up.
Many of us are tired of trips to combat zones in the middle east...so I doubt if any of my peers give much weight to what you think about the choice to "pulling gear" at CAL. I don't know you either but wishing harm to the most screwed pilots in many years is pretty low don't you think? OBTW...bypass is a word that can be used by more than sUAL...it is also used if you do not take the sCAL offer. First off I am a Jr pilot at UAL. Secondly I am referring to any non UAL pilots who are considering hiring on when LCAL starts taking new hires in October. I am not speaking of any of the LUAL folks who took the LCAL offer of employment. How you made the jump to "Wishing harm to the most screwed pilots" is not clear to me. In fact not only am I not wishing our furloughees harm I am trying in create awareness to the ****e sandwich that is going down in regards to our guys right now. Big picture, LCAL is getting ready to hire off the street when LUAL still has guys on the street. This is wrong in so many ways!! BTW Bypass is used specifically in the context of a furlough recall. If somebody did not take the LCAL offer that person simply refused a preferential offer of employment. Semantics obviously, but that's how I see it. |
Originally Posted by Airhoss
(Post 1244628)
Nobody can show you time that an airline furloughed for the sole reason of bringing back a senior person.
I think everyone that wishes to fly for UAL/CAL knows that they will be junior for quite a few years. If the company, combined or separate, eventually needs to furlough then yes, the junior will get furloughed. Everyone understands that. You saying "folks that hire on to the LCAL side this fall are furloughed within 6 months due to the flood of recall guys" is 100% wrong. Again, no one will get furloughed due to recalls. If there are furloughs, it will be due to something else. |
Originally Posted by CheapFlyer
(Post 1244644)
Then why are you predicting that it will happen here in this situation?
I think everyone that wishes to fly for UAL/CAL knows that they will be junior for quite a few years. If the company, combined or separate, eventually needs to furlough then yes, the junior will get furloughed. Everyone understands that. You saying "folks that hire on to the LCAL side this fall are furloughed within 6 months due to the flood of recall guys" is 100% wrong. Again, no one will get furloughed due to recalls. If there are furloughs, it will be due to something else. Thats exactly right.. Hoss was making it seem like returning UAL folk would cause furloughs. Any new hire anywhere can expect to be jr for a long, long time....so what? Thats the name of the game. |
Originally Posted by Airhoss
(Post 1244622)
You are not understanding the current situation. All of the "New hires" at LCAL at the moment are LUAL furloughees. However only about one in seven took the offer of employment at LCAL.
Therefore we still have approximately 1,000 pilots waiting in the wings not to mention the 400 or so now at LCAL who are STILL furloughed from LUAL. Does the 1400-ish number include the Vol-Furloughs, or exclude them?? If the Vol-Furloughs ARE included in the 1400-ish, and 400 of the 1400-ish took L-CAL offers, I come up with a much 'tighter' number than the "1:7" you draw above?? Can you please explain the 'accuracy'? |
Originally Posted by slammer1906
(Post 1244653)
Thats exactly right.. Hoss was making it seem like returning UAL folk would cause furloughs. Any new hire anywhere can expect to be jr for a long, long time....so what? Thats the name of the game.
1437 furloughs. ~400 already at CAL ~1000 still bypassing. Out of the 1000 still bypassing, best guess based on history, is that 60% will come back. The combined company has approximately ~400 retiring a year. So for those that are new hires at CAL this fall and next spring plan on being at the absolute bottom for about 1.5 years. After that you should then progress up the list 'naturally' as the ~400 retirements a year continue. This is based on no growth, and no shrinkage. YMMV. |
Can you please explain the 'accuracy'? I've been told 1 in 7 I don't know the exact number of guys who took the LCAL deal or therefore if the 1 in 7 number is correct. I was trying make it simple using broad numbers. Obviously a mistake when dealing with pilot personalities. Please feel free to gather that information yourself as it is just as easy or difficult for you to it as it is for myself. Which is besides the point obviously. The point is we've still got guys on furlough. We are hiring off the street before we bring those guys back. That is a problem, hopefully a short term problem. It is also problematic for the guys who accept an offer of employment as they've got a bunch of guys filtering in above them. Which also a new precedent which AKAIK has not been experienced in the industry prior to this extremely unique situation. This something for anybody not already on the LUAL list accepting a job here in the near future to seriously consider plain and simple. PS I am going to be out of contact for a couple of days. I've got to help out a sick family member who lives in a very rural area and has no internet service. I'll be glad to continue this banter when I return. Until then. |
Originally Posted by Airhoss
(Post 1244704)
It is also problematic for the guys who accept an offer of employment as they've got a bunch of guys filtering in above them. Which also a new precedent which AKAIK has not been experienced in the industry prior to this extremely unique situation.
Same thing happened at DAL a few years back with their off the street hiring while furloughed guys bypassed with their 10 year recall rights. |
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