So, a 737 Captain in ORD on this next bid, huh.

Funny that you say this because I've been thinking the same thing.

I can't stand listening to guys on the line or the training center talking about what they hear is in the AIP/TA (to follow) when not one of us has seen anything in writing. I don't believe it, even if it was a case of verbal diarrhea from a union rep. Until I see it, I don't believe it.

That being said of course I have heard the $400 million rumor, but just saying that is seriously out of context as it relates to the rest of the TA. Is that just the cash value paid directly to pilots? Just maybe there is another (just throwing a figure out there...go ahead and start THIS rumor if you want now too) $600 million+ in stock equity for the pilots as well?

It's all BS until I myself see it on paper. Until then my pay is what it is. The crappy work rules I have now are what they are. Period. End of story.

Just make sure you consider the entire package before making your automatic no vote. I can't stand those single issue voters who are willing to accept a truck load of junk as long as they get their one issue satisfied. It's like with politics and the abortion debate.

Sure 320, will consider the entire package but the first thing I look at is the retro, if it's not full I will stop reading and vote no, sorry thats how I'll do it. But hey look at it any way you want.

Is that why you voted no on Contract 2000?

Oh, I see. You are one of those "I vote NO on everything" kind of guys/gals.

I never voted up or down on only one single issue on any contract. I also never thought the world revolved around the wide body either.

There is so much mental masterbation on right now about a hypothetical retro issue for a TA that doesn't exist yet. One thing s a fact. The retro picture isn't going to get better for every month that passes.

Nope there was more to my no vote in contract2000 which was a long time ago hoss.

I understand and thats great how you determine your vote, not sure what the wide body comment was about, do you think I spent my entire life on a widebody?

I could care a less where you spent your entire life. You have been around long enough to be an ESOP pusher

Now I'm an esop pusher, I have been around for a while sorry thats a problem for you. Kind of hard to tell what you are talking about, is that cause you have not been around long enough, lol. You have gone from a don't vote on one issue to an esop pusher, just keep jumping around. By the way what the hell is an esop pusher.

At least you admit that nothing else matters if "Full Retro" doesn't satisfy the way you calculate it. By the way. For the benefit of everyone please enlighten us all on how you would calculate full retro. Is it based on what DAL is now paid or what they have been paid for the last 3 years. Do you have a different retro schedule for the CAL and UAL amendable dates? How does your up or down vision include those on furlough, voluntary or otherwise. How about those on LOA who didn't earn at UAL? "How about those on MIL leave? How do you feel about the MEC dividing it up similar to the Bond Allocation?

These are all kinds of things you should consider just on the retro issue alone but you will never read that info unless the first two words are FULL RETRO.



An ESOP Pusher is one of those who justified huge pay, work rule, retirement and a B Scale Shuttle concessions in exchange for stock you couldn't sell till retirement which was over priced to begin with just so that our ESOP brainchild MEC chairman could put his boots up on the desk in the boardroom. All this while denying everyone the ability to vote on that turd in 94.

Are you one of those?

Yes 320 that is what I said, how I figure it should not matter that much to you, but yes it is figured. No I would never leave it up to the mec to divide it up. No I was not an esop pusher but feel free to call me one or any other name or group you like to come up with.

I just asked if you we're one of those. Don't get so defensive. Those ESOP pushers were single issue types with a hell with the rest of the issues mentality.

My entire point is to read the entire TA(which doesn't exist yet) before you judge it. That also goes for those who would vote yes if they read Full Retro and disregard the rest. If you aren't willing to do that then that says a lot about you. That's all. I imagine a 63-64 yr old would sell out the rest for full retro since time is short.

Yes the ta that doesn't exist. No I am not going to vote yes if full retro and nothing else. I know you don't like it but I am tired of this being dragged out everytime and that is why I will start at full retro and if not there will vote no. No I am not 63-64 year old and have never sold out the rest and won't start now. I always get defensive with the name calling bs thats all.

By the way I really don't think we will see a ta anytime soon, again just an opinion. Lets hope I am wrong on that one.

I believe IAH went more junior, early to mid 2005 holding Captain.

syd,

I was just curious no slight intended.

You got all that from me asking syd if he voted no on C-200 because of retro??? WOW.....

Np Hoss, hope all is well at your end.

This "retro vs. sign bonus" may be a socialist's dream come true!

Pathetic.

And there in lies a major problem with the L-CAL pilot's perception that there are two unions. ALPA is going to make sure no majority has enough dissatisfaction to attempt another decertification. Bend over.

To further that thought, it really doesn't matter what the L-CAL pilots think, or think they want. It is my belief that National ALPA will has a serious hand in looking over any proposal created by this painfully anti-labor, RLA governed process. Not that their (national ALPA's) ability to crystal ball the future is any better than the rest of us, but they need to insure that the majority (read L-UAL) of the pilot group is appeased, or risk certain death. They still have holes in the budget from the loss of the USairways Pilot's dues and are maneuvering like the Medici family to insure no larger group perceives injustice.

Where there's smoke there's fire. I think there may be some validity to the $400 million and 70% to L-UAL. Then throw in the persistent 50% in stock, a hold back until SLI rumor, make it the MEC's responsibility and you're Jeffed.

looks like sli will be a dream
 

Looking like sli will be a dream compared to the more immediate job of deciding where bonus/retro goes and how it will be distributed.

Guess the old saying that a major pilot only cares about:
salary,
seniority,
and sex
but not necessarily in that order.

Cal/Ual might finally answer that order question.

where do the numbers come from?

why just 400 million?

Why do CA's get more than FO's. Heck, the FO's are doing all the damn work around here.

The FO's outnumber the Captains around here, so this won't fly, just on the numbers. No way would an FO vote for this. No way would an FO rep at the table vote for it either.

Why are you guys using the term "bonus"? I do not want a "bonus". (unless it's on top of my 100% retro check)
The term is "100% RETRO"!!!!!

R-E-T-R-O

Period

Just a thought, there are some folks, l-ual who fly 80-85 hours and then you have some that fly min hours or less - for whatever reason. Why should they all be "rewarded" the same? but then you have those who are on reserve who work their tails off for 70hrs of pay. I think the best way is a w2 based system but based on ALPA's history they will come up with some method that will screw us all.

Just a few things that come to mind when dealing with "Retro" vs "Bonus"

Tax Receivership Implications.....Missed/Post B-Fund Contributions to name just a few in any potential screw job by way of "Bonus".

Wave enough "$0's", there are certainly enough takers to garner 50.1% in any future TA vote......Pathetic.

God, I hope I'm wrong.

This has got to be one of the stupidest proposals i've heard yet. Base the retro on W-2?! It favors line holders, so those that are more senior. Also it favors Scabs: which I include those picking up trips while guys are on furlough or junior manning where they get additional hours of credit pay for taking a leg, turn, or trip. You must be one of these guys. Don't give me this garbage that reserve guys or low-time guys will be "rewarded" for getting an equal retro check. You are clueless.

It really depends on how big your own big issue is.

For me, my one big issue is scope. After that my one big issue is compensation, After that my one big issue is retro-pay.

All three of my "single issues" are important to me.

The new FAR's will take care of most of the domestic scheduling stuff combined with UAL's work rules. Our CAL-slaveship work-rules will thankfully go away.


But, like the abortion debate. It's either a live person in the womb or it's not. This contract will either be a POS or it won't. That single issue, is like so many other single issues. Black/white....whatever.............

ALPA better not screw me! How's that for a single issue?

Interesting.................you want the reserve guys who've been abused and had their tails worked off for 70 hours to be "rewarded" less than time *****s and those who do everything they can to pad their paychecks at the expense of their fellow pilots. This sounds like a particular type of very disliked pilot group we have at CAL......................and no, they didn't all cross the picket line, but they might as well have....................

Ya just gootta respect those who toss the word scab around for everything you don't agree with. You need to go back and re-read the definition of a scab. ALPA has lots of experience with coming up with convoluted schemes to distribute money and they will be working overtime with this one. However it is distributed, these forums will be debating it until the end of time - which I think is December 21, 2012
:-)

Scabs live on both sides of the fence in this neighborhood.

Y'all that think reserve guys have been slacking because they "only" make 70 hours should take turn or two during the summer and the holidays and tell me what you think about the life style. I've been STUCK on reserve for the last 4 going on 5 years. It's not fun.

It's RETRO, that's what it means. The difference between what u made vs what u would of made if you had a contract at your amendable date. If you want to call it a bonus, that's fine, but most are fighting for what they are OWED! Has to come from W2

Smartest, most reasonable yet.

Nothing like REWARDING the behavior of the folks who do their darndest to SCREW everyone else. I know of several B777 FO's whose earnings would make my W-2 look like peanuts and I'll bet you have NO idea who works harder. (Hint, it's not a guy sitting in FC and a bunk for 98% of a flight.) I guess because they've learned to "game" the system and hurt their fellow pilots, they should be rewarded handsomely for that. No wonder we're in the shape we are. :rolleyes:

For who? The time wh*res? The VJM'ing wh*res? Yep, let's reward them more for their unacceptable behavior. That'll certainly show'em, won't it?:mad:

Redistribution of wealth argument. This is great!

Whatever its called, James wants a mess of it.

As mentioned above, retro is short for retroactive. It's the pay one earned after the amendable date of the last contract. The OT over achievers will do better than the guys on reserve. It is what it is and isn't worth arguing about. If YOU flew 85 hours per month per year you'd feel the same way. As for me, its 70 hrs month after month in indentured servitude to mother united.

But we can argue all day about a distribution of equity or a signing bonus. This place will implode if ALPA screws it up.

Wanna bet? That "knucklehead FO rep" is probably one of the finest Union guys serving on the CAL MEC and you should be thanking him for the job that he's been doing. He hasn't been blindly following Pied Piper Pierce like the rest of the lemmings on the MEC have.