I'm ready to vote on the TA.
10-31-2012, 06:01 AM
#32
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Posts: 218
For those of you that believe this TA could still be acceptable (even with the two cornerstones already revealed being substandard). I compare this to buying a new car. You've seen the outside and it's scratched and dented. Why even open the hood? Section 3 is not good. More importantly though, we are giving up scope and retro! For the past twelve years pilots have preached and preached about how management duped them with 50 and 70 seat scope but NEVER AGAIN! Now that we know scope has been relaxed, I'm hearing a bunch off excuses and how we have to see the entire TA! We cannot let management, the NMB, or even ALPA force us into another 10 years of outsourcing and further degrade our careers. I see and hear a lot of fear and defeatist attitudes.
Guys if you want to return this career to what it should be then it will take a little pain and inconvenience. If it means another 6 months or more of negotiations then so be it!!! If it means we are put on ice then who cares. I am not going to waste the past five years of living under POS '02 by lowering my already reasonable standards because I'm scared that the NMB will get angry, or that management will (fill in the blank)...etc. Just like every other contract negotiation there will always be excuses to lower our standards and accept something we never would have accepted before. That's how we got here in the first place! We need to look back at all the tough guy talk of the past 12 years and actually walk the walk. Industry Leading TA in each cornerstone or vote NO!!!
Guys if you want to return this career to what it should be then it will take a little pain and inconvenience. If it means another 6 months or more of negotiations then so be it!!! If it means we are put on ice then who cares. I am not going to waste the past five years of living under POS '02 by lowering my already reasonable standards because I'm scared that the NMB will get angry, or that management will (fill in the blank)...etc. Just like every other contract negotiation there will always be excuses to lower our standards and accept something we never would have accepted before. That's how we got here in the first place! We need to look back at all the tough guy talk of the past 12 years and actually walk the walk. Industry Leading TA in each cornerstone or vote NO!!!
10-31-2012, 07:06 AM
#35
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Position: Old, retired, healthy, debt-free, liquid
Posts: 422
Originally Posted by Mitch Rapp05
...Guys if you want to return this career to what it should be...
This is a fiercely competitive business with a huge over-supply of relatively qualified pilot labor. The math is easy.
10-31-2012, 07:29 AM
#36
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Originally Posted by Old UCAL CA
Labor will not return it to anything, only the market will...and it will take far, far, far, fewer individuals applying for pilot positions for that to happen in the foreseeable future.
This is a fiercely competitive business with a huge over-supply of relatively qualified pilot labor. The math is easy.
This is a fiercely competitive business with a huge over-supply of relatively qualified pilot labor. The math is easy.
Lets assume the pilot oversupply is truly a valid excuse to lower our standards. Wel if that's the case WHY even consider relaxing scope!!! We say that there's an oversupply and because of that we can't expect a leading contract, yet we are ready to give up scope!!!! That's illogical and stupid!
Old CAl Ca - I mean no disrespect so please excuse me if my reply sounds as such! I'm just frustrated that we (pilots) continually justify lowering our standards! I am prepared to walk away from this job forever! With that attitude I can withstand anything management, the NMB, and ALPA can throw at me. We must all have the self respect to be ready to say NO until we are rightly compensated!
10-31-2012, 07:41 AM
#37
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
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Posts: 6,971
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
Not exactly. At Delta, the Delta union signed a letter of agreement instantly improving their own situation. The NWA union was not part of this. Then Lee Moak's response was that their new LOA would be something to build off of for the JCBA. Agree. My recollection is that the LOA came about after the NWA MEC rejected the first attempt at a JCBA.
The JCBA ended up being exactly the same as the new Delta contract after the LOA. Not quite but close enough.
At that point, the Northwest pilots had no choice, but to vote yes. Huh? If NWA pilots (or Delta pilots) had rejected the JCBA wouldn't it have been back to negotiations? Both pilot groups, by a vote of their respective memberships not just their MEC's, had to approve it for the JCBA to become effective.
The Delta pilots could have voted it down and screwed the NWA pilots, but the Delta pilots have never voted anything down. This doesn't quite make sense to me. So what you are saying is the Delta pilots did NOT screw the NWA pilots and that's a bad thing because they never voted anything down? I would think this was a good thing.
It passed on both sides, and Delta had a joint contract before the SLI was ever decided. The SLI went into effect the day it was released. About 6 months later, pilots were crossing over.
The JCBA ended up being exactly the same as the new Delta contract after the LOA. Not quite but close enough.
At that point, the Northwest pilots had no choice, but to vote yes. Huh? If NWA pilots (or Delta pilots) had rejected the JCBA wouldn't it have been back to negotiations? Both pilot groups, by a vote of their respective memberships not just their MEC's, had to approve it for the JCBA to become effective.
The Delta pilots could have voted it down and screwed the NWA pilots, but the Delta pilots have never voted anything down. This doesn't quite make sense to me. So what you are saying is the Delta pilots did NOT screw the NWA pilots and that's a bad thing because they never voted anything down? I would think this was a good thing.
It passed on both sides, and Delta had a joint contract before the SLI was ever decided. The SLI went into effect the day it was released. About 6 months later, pilots were crossing over.
Sorry for the thread jack.
Denny
10-31-2012, 09:28 AM
#38
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by Old UCAL CA
Labor will not return it to anything, only the market will...and it will take far, far, far, fewer individuals applying for pilot positions for that to happen in the foreseeable future.
This is a fiercely competitive business with a huge over-supply of relatively qualified pilot labor. The math is easy.
This is a fiercely competitive business with a huge over-supply of relatively qualified pilot labor. The math is easy.
I disagree. Supply and demand, while it has some effect, is an excuse. Flight attendants are making more at continental than most, if not all regional first officers. CAL FA tops out around $60 and hour. Based on supply and demand theory, that would mean there are more people applying to be first officers than their are people applying to be flight attendants. The supply for flight attendants is virtually infinite. They just have the balls to vote NO. Maybe because they aren't worried about upgrading faster. Most aren't the sole providers of financial support in their families, they can risk it. That is why you are only worth what you negotiate....Not what the supply and demand market will support.
Just vote NO!
10-31-2012, 09:49 AM
#39
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Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: 747 Captain, retired
Posts: 928
Originally Posted by Mitch Rapp05
We must stop making excuses. I guarantee you there will always be an excuse. Whether its the market, the gov't, management, etc!!! I am a pilot and I have a cost just like gas has its cost. It's not my job to figure out how many pilots are applying, how much the company can "afford", etc.!!! Come on people! Look at what a unified pilot group like American can do!!!
Lets assume the pilot oversupply is truly a valid excuse to lower our standards. Wel if that's the case WHY even consider relaxing scope!!! We say that there's an oversupply and because of that we can't expect a leading contract, yet we are ready to give up scope!!!! That's illogical and stupid!
Old CAl Ca - I mean no disrespect so please excuse me if my reply sounds as such! I'm just frustrated that we (pilots) continually justify lowering our standards! I am prepared to walk away from this job forever! With that attitude I can withstand anything management, the NMB, and ALPA can throw at me. We must all have the self respect to be ready to say NO until we are rightly compensated!
Lets assume the pilot oversupply is truly a valid excuse to lower our standards. Wel if that's the case WHY even consider relaxing scope!!! We say that there's an oversupply and because of that we can't expect a leading contract, yet we are ready to give up scope!!!! That's illogical and stupid!
Old CAl Ca - I mean no disrespect so please excuse me if my reply sounds as such! I'm just frustrated that we (pilots) continually justify lowering our standards! I am prepared to walk away from this job forever! With that attitude I can withstand anything management, the NMB, and ALPA can throw at me. We must all have the self respect to be ready to say NO until we are rightly compensated!
10-31-2012, 10:39 AM
#40
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Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by krudawg
There always will be a pilot oversupply and the future will bring more pilots as the Military begins "Rifing" pilots as the wars grind to a halt. I think the best way to slow outsourcing down is to force Airlines to accept liability for their express carriers. Instead of burning through our MCF with petty regional airline gripes, let's burn it up paying lawyers to fight this liability legal battle.
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