For or Against?
 

Allegedly, we'll be voting on the TA in a couple weeks. I'm actually surprised this hasn't been posted already.

APC polls are very scientific. The DAL TA APC poll was spot on!....... Oh wait....

Trip,

You don't work here. Why are you worried about it?

Maybe he knows he may never also ...

I will be voting no as I previouslt stated just because of the pathetic retro, making it even easier for the no vote is how our furloughed pilots are being treated and of course the pay isn't even at dal rates.

That being said I will be suprised if it doesn't pass.

I expect that many 320 guys will vote yes for the pay reasons, I expect many cal will vote yes because of the expected windfall in seniority, some older guys yes to take what they think they can get from pathetic retro, some yes because they are weak, some yes at both properties because what they have done in the past, some yes after the heavy selling from our pathetic leaders. It looks like an easy pass. The company knows all the splits and how weak we are as a group. They know what areas they had to offer and they know how easy our negotiating team was mulipulated to get those few things so they could sell this pos to enough pilots.

Hey, I am not trying to just **** everyone off and I sure hope I am proved wrong in a big way, but as you walk through ops and ride the bus and the vans and I hear pilots talking like they are already spending what the pay raise is, like this is a done deal and how quiet they get when you bring up how bad this ta is, that all tells me plenty.

Go a head prove me wrong!

The dissenting reps are spot on. I noticed much of what they noticed, but they did a better job.

I wish they could have talked about the 900 range on those so called RJ's.

All this complaining about the company screwing us - after the way this has played out, I wouldn't be surprised if the only ones who screwed us was both our MEC's. 2.5 years of negotiation delays being blamed on the company. We get an AIP? It takes our idiot leaders 3 months to come up with the most confusing language I have ever seen? Maybe it took our union reps this long to come to an AIP! we problably got Delta minus 1 year and less retro because our childish infighting cost the company a bunch of time.

I am vol furlough so I don't get to vote. But if I did I would vote yes if only to get this silliness over, and move forward in life. Until we become one WE are our own worst enemy.

95 hire vol furlough

The DAL poll ended up 58% no 34% yes.

LOA 25 kills it for me. There is no way I can vote yes on an agreement that thumps our furloughees and in turn heavily and unfairly tilts the ISL in CAL's favor.

I had problems with that to. Then, I talked to those that were there and had them explain it to me. Go to a road show before making a decision.

CAL pilot here. Will be a NO vote.

Bus FO with walking money saved...NO. :D

Just an FYI- all NWA pilots were made whole on their longevity while out on furlough in the DL JCBA.

That had zero bearing on the SLI and it won't on yours either.

If you read his posts on the "other board", for some reason he wants as many 70+ seats jets running around at express for some silly reason.

No idea why. The 50 seaters are an economic drain to the mainline carrier. But MORE important, the 70's are a BIGGER threat to the narrow body.

Not really. Delta has had 70+ seats for years and has hired more than the other legacy carriers combined. Why? International expansion. Pilots need to stop worrying about Duluth and worry about Dubai, Lagos, Auckland etc.

Wrong. We need to worry about all of it. We're being attacked by both sides and from within if you read our TA. It's like reaching into a bag of poisonous snakes while trying to pluck out twenty dollar bills scattered among them.

IAD-MIA on a CRJ???? Really???? What a POS that thing is. And, what a disservice we are foisting upon the traveling public. No wonder people call SWA and book away from us. If YOU ran a business, would you treat your customers like that?? The product sucks from the time you approach the gate until the airport is in the rear view at your destination.

This career, and much of the travel industry is being ruined by Johnny Come Lately MBA's who care not one whit for you, me, or the industry. Their only concern is how much they can suck out of the company by bludgeoning labor.

Sorry for that. James feels better now.

James speaks the truth! Preach on Brother James!

I can't decide if it's a VATSIMmer playing wannabe, a new Riddle grad telling us everything he learned in class about airline management, or a management shill trying to spread the kool-aid around.

In a couple other threads he's tried to make $100 Amazon gift card bets with people, which alone tells you it's not a real RJ FO. No RJ FO has that kind of money to waste, they're too busy trying to pay rent, buy food, etc..

I also am certain his Captains consider him an absolute JOY to fly with. :rolleyes:

Yes, yes he does. He should change his nickname from the "The Godfather of Soul" to the "The Godfather of FUMP!!!!!!"

But the RJ shouldn't be used AT ALL to connect major cities. Using his example of the MIA-IAD, toss in places like DTW, MSP, ATL, LGA/JFK/EWR as others. Sure, the growth is in the int'l markets, assuming it's not JV'd out. But use the mainline/narrow body aircraft to feed that int'l expansion from major metropolitan areas.

I'd go with the second one.

Unless they're using the underpaid pilot income enhancement technique of living in the parent's basement.

Sorry for stepping in/interjecting. Back to the poll.

I make more than the median household income in the US and have a job in a time when many are unemployed and desperate for a job as a Walmart cashier. Don't worry about me, I'm doing just fine.

Anyways, looks like xjtguy and oldmako have the airline industry all figured out. Why don't you two start an airline together and use your vast knowledge of airline economics to run a profitable upstart carrier because clearly you know exactly what the majors are doing wrong.

Sounds like you need to be the one starting an airline since you've got it all figured out. ;)

Yup, VATSIMer. Go ahead, ask it any question about the CR7, just give it a minute to look it up on the internet or in FSX. Might even be a non-flying Riddle student VATSIMmer.


Either way, if it doesn't work for LCAL/UAL it shouldn't be commenting here on our TA, and should go troll somewhere else.

I am a LUAL pilot. I am leaning toward voting YES.

I hate this contract, pay, retro, everything about it for the LUAL pilots. However, I think that any delay in passing will not get us any better deal, and may be an extended delay. UAL will shrink as CO grows. Where have we seen that before?

The money we lose in the mean time we will never get back.

We need to get on with the SLI and finish it so we can fix this turd.

How about we grow a pair and FIX IT NOW (wait wasn't that a campaign about 6 years ago??? FIN???)

SEND IT BACK----UNSAT and it is an EPIC FAILURE.

Here's the problem with that sport. If you really are an RJ F/O, then you've probably invested north of $50,000 USD to obtain at least a Commercial / Inst / ME ticket and a four year degree. And that would be doing it about as cheaply as possible. Of course, college isn't essential but you seem fairly confident in your airline acumen so I'm going to guess that you matriculated and got your college on. That places you in a group who enjoys a rate of unemployment at just over 4 percent. Not too bad when compared to the rest of the US. Therefore, you ought to have a job.

If you went to EmbyDoodle or some other fine aviatory institution for your degree and tickets, then you've probably spent almost twice that. How many people in the US have both a four year degree and an ATP (or COMM/INST/ME)?

I'll give you a hint, according to the FAA there are 125,738 commercial pilots and 144,600 ATP's in the US. So, just over 270,000 of us, give or take a peck.

Pilot certification in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For comparison, there were over 661,400 licensed MDs in the US in 2008.

Now, I don't don't claim to have near the education or skills as an MD. But aside from the guys who rip tails off Bonanza's, how many doctors could fire up your RJ and successfully go somewhere in really crappy weather? Sure its a silly comparison, but apt. We've got a pricey skill set and deserve to be well compensated for it.

So right off the bat, you've got edjumacation that most can only dream about. In that regard, it seems silly to compare your financial position with Joe Six-Pack who doesn't have your flight training or education. I'm not a snob, but I'm not going to compare my skill set with the dude behind the counter at Advance Auto or a cashier at WalMart.

I don't care what the median income is, I only care what mine is. I won't sell myself short just because the HS grad digging a ditch is poorly compensated or because of high unemployment. I bet your lawyer and doctor don't compare their compensation to the median US household. That would be stupid and shortsighted. Certainly you're neither. Right?

According to the US census, the median household income was $51,914 between 2006 and 2010.
USA QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau

Please forgive my ignorance about the rest of the industry, but exactly where can an RJ F/O make more than that...without working overtime? You're a lucky dude! Congrats! Most commuter F/O's don't come close to that. Some might even wonder if you really are an RJ F/O with a salary like that. But I doubt that any of us will worry about you. So, don't worry about us.

This thing will pass, or it won't and we'll just have to deal with the outcome. If you're lucky, we'll make some inroads into the abysmal scope situation and in doing so improve your chances of flying a Boeing or Airbus one day. Along the way, we'll try and shove the pendulum in the other direction and put some pay, dignity and benefits back into this woefully underpaid job.

Excellent!

Mako,

Good post. I agree with just about everything you say about the economics of the industry...... but there are a few other factors that are in play against legacy Pilots:

911: Management certainly did not "waste this crisis" to steal a line from Rahm. They used the post 911 environment to set labor back decades. Now, supply and demand should eventually help to correct compensation from its artificially low post 911/BK levels but it will take time.

Time: Guys have been waiting a decade and some guys are getting close to retirement and are unwilling to delay now for a potential better payoff down the road which may not even come.

RLA: Tthis serves as friction slowing down, if not stopping the laws of supply and demand from correcting artificially low compensation.

On the bright side soon all the legacies will be out from under BK contracts thus hopefully enabling some big gains in the near future. I know this is probably not much consolation for you guys right now but it will certainly help us all in the long run.

Good luck to all the UCAL guys!

Scoop

Brother James got brain an he got game!!

Excellent post brother James.

Thank you for the support, AirHoss and all APC members who see the LOA25 as the abomination of calculating wordsmithery it is. Elsewhere on this board we double furloughees have been characterized as 'an expendable 300'.

Appreciate your fraternity. Need some solace as I'm feeling triple bent over, gut shot, shocked, and dismayed.

How can some furlough time count but other furlough time not count? :confused:

I'd have been willing to accept cutting the baby in half and get the high hard staple job but live on the edge of furlough on 12th year pay my Aug 2000 DOH would garner. Instead, "Spalding!! You will get nothing and like it!!" is a cold shot of p!ss to the heart. I'm starting to miss the line less and less.......

Great Post!

I'm voting yes .. I trust Jay Heppner, and if it wasn't for his bold manuevering, we'd still be hearing Jay Pierce updates about how rosy the the company and the Hours of Service SME were singing Kumbaya. As far as the whole Continental, "let's Easternize this" and "harvest" United's flights, I'm not worried about that. We, the legacy UAL, would rather destroy the airline than allow that scenario to take place. First word of L-UAL furlough and this place will burn to the ground. Summer 2000 will look tame in comparison. I'd rather burn this place down than let some scab mentality pilot profit on my demise.

So, on one hand you trust Hepner and his "bold maneuvering," but on the other hand you aren't worried about the canibalization of ual. Which camp do you think is spreading the fear about cal taking ual flying, ala easternize?

I'd be careful about espousing the "burn the house down" theory. Those who you are hoping to do battle with in that escapade are the sheep buying the fear spread by the Hepner camp.

My decision to vote yes is just pure math. A year's delay in getting the "next" will cost about 35% of a year's salary. For what? 5% better pay rates ? Multiply that by 7 years and you break even. This is a good contract and it will allow us to get on with seniority integration.

A good contract? I can only read it 30 min at a time before I have to walk away and settle my nerves. Enjoy your pennies on the dollar retro, industry lacking pay, a contract riddled with outs in every section for the company, and rjs out of control.

Actually they are scientific, all you have to do is cut the no vote in half and double the yes vote on an APC poll and you get close to a real world poll of the average line pilot.

This is the same thoughtful and reasoned analysis most pilots will undertake when casting their vote. It is the same that your negotiators and MEC undertook when they reached their conclusion. Good luck.

Yes, a years delay is well reasoned. Well reasoned based on fear.

And what is your reasoning based on? Fact or fear? What are your fears? Someone is going to force you to fly? Not going to make more that Delta and hurting your pride? Not enough coin in the Retro meaning the next contract will drag on for10 years? Gonna get furloughed? On and on...I've seen all these fears/facts and more on this forum. I'm going to base my vote/decisions on a risk/reward analysis. Same I do every time I go to work, study the flight papers and fly from A to B. So please spare me the fear card.

My reasoning is based upon what is in front of me. The TA, and it falls way short.

And my reasoning is it doesn't. Happy Turkey day.