Scope Block Hour Ratio
11-16-2012, 04:13 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by skippy
How about explaining why we can allow up to 750 rjs and props.
Complete crap
Complete crap
MaxTotal United Express hull count to drop from current 588 to eventual cap of 450 (excluding 37-seat
turboprop aircraft)
MAX 255 70/76 seat aircraft (Q400's included) up until 1/1/16. After 1/1/16 company can add up to a total of 325 70/76 seaters but on a sliding scale to get to the 325 point they have to purchase up to 88 new small narrow body aircraft as defined in scope definitions. They also have to reduce current 70 jets from 148 to 102.
From the Scope Crew News:
New Small Narrowbody (SNB) Aircraft (1-C-1-g)
• This provision captures 90/100-seat jets for United pilots and eliminates the threat of delaying the issue
for future contract negotiations. It ties the ability of the Company to add 76-seat aircraft to Express carrier
flying/feeder operation (to match/compete with other carriers such as Delta) to our acquisition and flying
of new SNB aircraft
• The Company must order new SNB aircraft to be able to exceed 153 76-seat aircraft (includes Q400s)
on/after Jan. 1, 2016
• Accompanying schedule to reduce 50-seat regional jets if Company exceeds 153 76-seat aircraft with a
final limit of 125 50-seat aircraft (if Company adds all permitted 76-seat aircraft)
• Each time a reduction of 50-seat aircraft takes place, it sets a new cap for 50-seat aircraft
• Once the Company exceeds 153 76-seat aircraft, the 70-seat aircraft count may not exceed 102
• Total United Express hull count to drop from current 588 to eventual cap of 450 (excluding 37-seat
turboprop aircraft)
In both legacy CBAs, the Company is restricted from operating small narrowbody aircraft (as defined at the end
of Section 1) in Express operations, but there is no incentive or motivation for the Company to bring them on
property for our pilots to fly. Now, the ability for the Company to add 76-seat aircraft to the Express operation (to
match and fully compete with Delta, for example) is directly tied to us getting these new aircraft. You may notice
a similar framework to the new Delta agreement, but it is important to note that the ability to address the seating
gap problem now, instead of waiting for future contracts, allowed us to successfully capture the 90/100-seat
market not currently outlined in other legacy Scope clauses.
With regard to 50-seat jets, the legacy Continental contract contained a provision that allowed Continental
Express to grow their fleet while we grew ours. However, there was no provision to decrease the number of hulls
that could be used by Express carriers. Following 9/11, markets that should have been served by mainline were
suddenly served by regional jets, and our aircraft were sent to the desert. With these new provisions, once the
Company begins to add 76-seat aircraft in excess of 153, the number of 50-seat aircraft must be reduced and there
is no mechanism to bring those hulls back into the fleet, regardless of their viability. This required reduction of
50-seat aircraft overrides the 90-percent provision (Section 1-C-1-a-(1)-ii): providing that the number of 50-seat
aircraft cannot number more than 90 percent of the number of single-aisle aircraft in the Company fleet. As stated,
under the TA, once the Company reaches the limit of permitted 76-seat aircraft, the Company is capped at 125 50-
seat aircraft. By inserting a hard cap on the number of hulls operated by UAX, we ensured that any future growth
in flying can only be enjoyed by United pilots.
A note about United Express aircraft: In this TA, there is no distinction for different engine propulsion types
(turbojets and propeller-driven, for example) when defining aircraft. This avoids threats to pilot Scope protections
posed by aircraft manufacturers who often tailor specific aircraft for carriers that meet or fall inside Scope clause
restrictions, and to accommodate future (known and unknown) engine types. All aircraft engine types are captured
by the pertinent Scope provisions
11-16-2012, 06:37 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 185
Originally Posted by CAL EWR
No 750 Rj's and props.
MaxTotal United Express hull count to drop from current 588 to eventual cap of 450 (excluding 37-seat
turboprop aircraft)
MAX 255 70/76 seat aircraft (Q400's included) up until 1/1/16. After 1/1/16 company can add up to a total of 325 70/76 seaters but on a sliding scale to get to the 325 point they have to purchase up to 88 new small narrow body aircraft as defined in scope definitions. They also have to reduce current 70 jets from 148 to 102.
From the Scope Crew News:
New Small Narrowbody (SNB) Aircraft (1-C-1-g)
• This provision captures 90/100-seat jets for United pilots and eliminates the threat of delaying the issue
for future contract negotiations. It ties the ability of the Company to add 76-seat aircraft to Express carrier
flying/feeder operation (to match/compete with other carriers such as Delta) to our acquisition and flying
of new SNB aircraft
• The Company must order new SNB aircraft to be able to exceed 153 76-seat aircraft (includes Q400s)
on/after Jan. 1, 2016
• Accompanying schedule to reduce 50-seat regional jets if Company exceeds 153 76-seat aircraft with a
final limit of 125 50-seat aircraft (if Company adds all permitted 76-seat aircraft)
• Each time a reduction of 50-seat aircraft takes place, it sets a new cap for 50-seat aircraft
• Once the Company exceeds 153 76-seat aircraft, the 70-seat aircraft count may not exceed 102
• Total United Express hull count to drop from current 588 to eventual cap of 450 (excluding 37-seat
turboprop aircraft)
In both legacy CBAs, the Company is restricted from operating small narrowbody aircraft (as defined at the end
of Section 1) in Express operations, but there is no incentive or motivation for the Company to bring them on
property for our pilots to fly. Now, the ability for the Company to add 76-seat aircraft to the Express operation (to
match and fully compete with Delta, for example) is directly tied to us getting these new aircraft. You may notice
a similar framework to the new Delta agreement, but it is important to note that the ability to address the seating
gap problem now, instead of waiting for future contracts, allowed us to successfully capture the 90/100-seat
market not currently outlined in other legacy Scope clauses.
With regard to 50-seat jets, the legacy Continental contract contained a provision that allowed Continental
Express to grow their fleet while we grew ours. However, there was no provision to decrease the number of hulls
that could be used by Express carriers. Following 9/11, markets that should have been served by mainline were
suddenly served by regional jets, and our aircraft were sent to the desert. With these new provisions, once the
Company begins to add 76-seat aircraft in excess of 153, the number of 50-seat aircraft must be reduced and there
is no mechanism to bring those hulls back into the fleet, regardless of their viability. This required reduction of
50-seat aircraft overrides the 90-percent provision (Section 1-C-1-a-(1)-ii): providing that the number of 50-seat
aircraft cannot number more than 90 percent of the number of single-aisle aircraft in the Company fleet. As stated,
under the TA, once the Company reaches the limit of permitted 76-seat aircraft, the Company is capped at 125 50-
seat aircraft. By inserting a hard cap on the number of hulls operated by UAX, we ensured that any future growth
in flying can only be enjoyed by United pilots.
A note about United Express aircraft: In this TA, there is no distinction for different engine propulsion types
(turbojets and propeller-driven, for example) when defining aircraft. This avoids threats to pilot Scope protections
posed by aircraft manufacturers who often tailor specific aircraft for carriers that meet or fall inside Scope clause
restrictions, and to accommodate future (known and unknown) engine types. All aircraft engine types are captured
by the pertinent Scope provisions
MaxTotal United Express hull count to drop from current 588 to eventual cap of 450 (excluding 37-seat
turboprop aircraft)
MAX 255 70/76 seat aircraft (Q400's included) up until 1/1/16. After 1/1/16 company can add up to a total of 325 70/76 seaters but on a sliding scale to get to the 325 point they have to purchase up to 88 new small narrow body aircraft as defined in scope definitions. They also have to reduce current 70 jets from 148 to 102.
From the Scope Crew News:
New Small Narrowbody (SNB) Aircraft (1-C-1-g)
• This provision captures 90/100-seat jets for United pilots and eliminates the threat of delaying the issue
for future contract negotiations. It ties the ability of the Company to add 76-seat aircraft to Express carrier
flying/feeder operation (to match/compete with other carriers such as Delta) to our acquisition and flying
of new SNB aircraft
• The Company must order new SNB aircraft to be able to exceed 153 76-seat aircraft (includes Q400s)
on/after Jan. 1, 2016
• Accompanying schedule to reduce 50-seat regional jets if Company exceeds 153 76-seat aircraft with a
final limit of 125 50-seat aircraft (if Company adds all permitted 76-seat aircraft)
• Each time a reduction of 50-seat aircraft takes place, it sets a new cap for 50-seat aircraft
• Once the Company exceeds 153 76-seat aircraft, the 70-seat aircraft count may not exceed 102
• Total United Express hull count to drop from current 588 to eventual cap of 450 (excluding 37-seat
turboprop aircraft)
In both legacy CBAs, the Company is restricted from operating small narrowbody aircraft (as defined at the end
of Section 1) in Express operations, but there is no incentive or motivation for the Company to bring them on
property for our pilots to fly. Now, the ability for the Company to add 76-seat aircraft to the Express operation (to
match and fully compete with Delta, for example) is directly tied to us getting these new aircraft. You may notice
a similar framework to the new Delta agreement, but it is important to note that the ability to address the seating
gap problem now, instead of waiting for future contracts, allowed us to successfully capture the 90/100-seat
market not currently outlined in other legacy Scope clauses.
With regard to 50-seat jets, the legacy Continental contract contained a provision that allowed Continental
Express to grow their fleet while we grew ours. However, there was no provision to decrease the number of hulls
that could be used by Express carriers. Following 9/11, markets that should have been served by mainline were
suddenly served by regional jets, and our aircraft were sent to the desert. With these new provisions, once the
Company begins to add 76-seat aircraft in excess of 153, the number of 50-seat aircraft must be reduced and there
is no mechanism to bring those hulls back into the fleet, regardless of their viability. This required reduction of
50-seat aircraft overrides the 90-percent provision (Section 1-C-1-a-(1)-ii): providing that the number of 50-seat
aircraft cannot number more than 90 percent of the number of single-aisle aircraft in the Company fleet. As stated,
under the TA, once the Company reaches the limit of permitted 76-seat aircraft, the Company is capped at 125 50-
seat aircraft. By inserting a hard cap on the number of hulls operated by UAX, we ensured that any future growth
in flying can only be enjoyed by United pilots.
A note about United Express aircraft: In this TA, there is no distinction for different engine propulsion types
(turbojets and propeller-driven, for example) when defining aircraft. This avoids threats to pilot Scope protections
posed by aircraft manufacturers who often tailor specific aircraft for carriers that meet or fall inside Scope clause
restrictions, and to accommodate future (known and unknown) engine types. All aircraft engine types are captured
by the pertinent Scope provisions
11-16-2012, 08:05 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by WarEagle28
What if the company never exercises the 76 seat option? Can they add up to 255 70 seaters and up to 90 % single aisle mainline aircraft? How many is that above our current count, thanks!
The 70/76 seaters (Q400's are counted in that category) combined count towards the 255 limit. The block hour ratio at date of signing is 120% of UEX flying to single isle aircraft. Once they breech the 153 76 seaters after 1/16 as they increase the 76 seaters up to 223 the ratio goes down 68% which would create 88 new small narrow body aircraft. Additionally the number of 70 seaters would have to be reduced down to 102.
11-16-2012, 08:17 PM
#14
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
The devil is in the details~
1-C-1-g Number of 76-Seat Aircraft
If the Company adds New Small Narrowbody aircraft to the Company Fleet, then on or after January 1, 2016, the number of permitted 76-Seat Aircraft may increase from 153 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 223 76-Seat Aircraft, and the number of permitted 76/70-Seat Aircraft may increase from 255 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 325 76/70-Seat Aircraft, except that once the number of 76/70-Seat Aircraft exceeds 255, then the number of 70-Seat Aircraft may not be more than 102. 76-Seat Aircraft (above 153 such Aircraft) may be added on a one 76- Seat Aircraft for each one and one quarter New Small Narrowbody Aircraft (1:1.25) ratio (rounded to the closest integer).
1-L-25 “New Small Narrowbody Aircraft” means a CS100, E190 or E195 aircraft, provided that such aircraft is neither in the Company Fleet as of the date of signing of this Agreement nor acquired through merger or acquisition of another air carrier.
Compensation Section-
CS300
EMB195
EMB190
CRJ900
So, lets be honest here.
First.. the company is putting 153 Large RJ's out there before they will even look at a NSNB aircraft order.. But, they mention CS100, E190 and E195. Yet, there are no pay scales for the CS100 but there is one for the CRJ900. Though, that is the aircraft that they will order, put 76 seat in it and then give to an RJ Carrier to fly!
So now we are left with ordering E190/195 aircraft.
At Delta.. their larger RJ's are tied into the B717. NOT the EMB Aircraft.
Their B717 12yr Capt (2013) pays $183.98 Their EMB195 pays $154.48 Their EMB190/CRJ900 pays $131.42
Now our CS300 would pay $181.24 - but it's not listed as a NSNB!
No pay scale for the CS100!
Our EMB195 will pay $142.38, our EMB190/CRJ900 will pay $121.12
Seriously, who came up with this **** and what the hell were the JNC and both MEC's looking at?!
1-C-1-g Number of 76-Seat Aircraft
If the Company adds New Small Narrowbody aircraft to the Company Fleet, then on or after January 1, 2016, the number of permitted 76-Seat Aircraft may increase from 153 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 223 76-Seat Aircraft, and the number of permitted 76/70-Seat Aircraft may increase from 255 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 325 76/70-Seat Aircraft, except that once the number of 76/70-Seat Aircraft exceeds 255, then the number of 70-Seat Aircraft may not be more than 102. 76-Seat Aircraft (above 153 such Aircraft) may be added on a one 76- Seat Aircraft for each one and one quarter New Small Narrowbody Aircraft (1:1.25) ratio (rounded to the closest integer).
1-L-25 “New Small Narrowbody Aircraft” means a CS100, E190 or E195 aircraft, provided that such aircraft is neither in the Company Fleet as of the date of signing of this Agreement nor acquired through merger or acquisition of another air carrier.
Compensation Section-
CS300
EMB195
EMB190
CRJ900
So, lets be honest here.
First.. the company is putting 153 Large RJ's out there before they will even look at a NSNB aircraft order.. But, they mention CS100, E190 and E195. Yet, there are no pay scales for the CS100 but there is one for the CRJ900. Though, that is the aircraft that they will order, put 76 seat in it and then give to an RJ Carrier to fly!
So now we are left with ordering E190/195 aircraft.
At Delta.. their larger RJ's are tied into the B717. NOT the EMB Aircraft.
Their B717 12yr Capt (2013) pays $183.98 Their EMB195 pays $154.48 Their EMB190/CRJ900 pays $131.42
Now our CS300 would pay $181.24 - but it's not listed as a NSNB!
No pay scale for the CS100!
Our EMB195 will pay $142.38, our EMB190/CRJ900 will pay $121.12
Seriously, who came up with this **** and what the hell were the JNC and both MEC's looking at?!
11-16-2012, 08:21 PM
#15
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 102
^^^^^ Someone is forgetting that the "new united" has NO "new" aircraft on order they are ALL replacements! UAL is NOT growing, it doesn't have to now because of this. But hey...the 10% system wide flying that is "all ours" (41% to USAir and 120% to UALex) is going to atleast all be in a new shiny A-380 at $392/hr right!!!!
11-16-2012, 09:10 PM
#16
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: b737 fo
Posts: 32
There are 588 total express aircraft... they will only add 76seater due to cost per seat mile and block hour limits... so they will add 72 airframes immediately... grand total of 660. Plus as per crewnews they have waved the 120percent limits while we get rid of more frames at mainline.. until boeing delivers more.. so we excuse a violation before the thing is even signed. And what do we get in return for this sub delta 30 percent retro contract?
11-17-2012, 07:03 AM
#18
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by CAL EWR
I am not familiar with the specifics of the DAL new contract. We were told by our subject matter experts that no one else has it and the DAL MEC contacted our MEC to say thanks for raising the scope bar.
I was hesitant to interject into your discussion because I don't have a comparison as to which of the two is a better deal. I just wanted to set the record straight that we also have a BLH ratio component to our scope. Again, best of luck to ya'll.
11-17-2012, 07:29 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Originally Posted by CAL EWR
I am not familiar with the specifics of the DAL new contract. We were told by our subject matter experts that no one else has it and the DAL MEC contacted our MEC to say thanks for raising the scope bar.
11-17-2012, 11:26 AM
#20
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Currently we (United, NOT Continental) have 153 Large (greater than 50 seats) RJ on property plus 15 Q400 (which would count as a Large RJ per the TA, if I am correct).
However, there's a catch. To go OVER 153 76seat aircraft, you have to add NSNB Aircraft. Until then, they are allowed up to 130 76seaters (until 2016, when the number can go to 153) and an additional 102 aircraft with 51-75 seats. Do you not agree?
1-C-1-a-(2)-(c) Up to a total of 255 76-Seat Aircraft plus 70-Seat Aircraft (“76/70- Seat Aircraft”), of which up to 130 may be 76-Seat Aircraft, and then, on or after January 1, 2016, up to 153 76-Seat Aircraft.
1-C-1-g Number of 76-Seat Aircraft
If the Company adds New Small Narrowbody aircraft to the Company Fleet, then on or after January 1, 2016, the number of permitted 76-Seat Aircraft may increase from 153 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 223 76-Seat Aircraft, and the number of permitted 76/70-Seat Aircraft may increase from 255 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 325 76/70-Seat Aircraft
So, currently we operate 168 Large RJ's. Under this agreement, the company can operate 255 Large RJ's as on DOS. So overnight, we give the company the right to increase Large RJ's (aircraft with a First Class, with the ability to fly over 900nm, and the ability to go hub to hub (all with some restrictions, I'll agree)) by a total of 87?! Some of which will be 76 seater.
Motch
However, there's a catch. To go OVER 153 76seat aircraft, you have to add NSNB Aircraft. Until then, they are allowed up to 130 76seaters (until 2016, when the number can go to 153) and an additional 102 aircraft with 51-75 seats. Do you not agree?
1-C-1-a-(2)-(c) Up to a total of 255 76-Seat Aircraft plus 70-Seat Aircraft (“76/70- Seat Aircraft”), of which up to 130 may be 76-Seat Aircraft, and then, on or after January 1, 2016, up to 153 76-Seat Aircraft.
1-C-1-g Number of 76-Seat Aircraft
If the Company adds New Small Narrowbody aircraft to the Company Fleet, then on or after January 1, 2016, the number of permitted 76-Seat Aircraft may increase from 153 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 223 76-Seat Aircraft, and the number of permitted 76/70-Seat Aircraft may increase from 255 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 325 76/70-Seat Aircraft
So, currently we operate 168 Large RJ's. Under this agreement, the company can operate 255 Large RJ's as on DOS. So overnight, we give the company the right to increase Large RJ's (aircraft with a First Class, with the ability to fly over 900nm, and the ability to go hub to hub (all with some restrictions, I'll agree)) by a total of 87?! Some of which will be 76 seater.
Motch
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