Scope Block Hour Ratio
11-22-2012, 05:14 AM
#51
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Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 215
Originally Posted by Sunvox
Honestly?
In what political reality could ALPA demand the elimination of Regionals.
The best option on the table is a slow transfer of seats from regionals to mainline. Asking for this to get done in a single contract is impossible. DAL was an improvement and the UAL TA scope carries the torch one step closer to the day when all flying is done at the mainline. The ALPA negotiators were not stupid, they knew full well that scope was THE single most important issue facing pilots today, and the scope clause reflects that understanding.
In what political reality could ALPA demand the elimination of Regionals.
The best option on the table is a slow transfer of seats from regionals to mainline. Asking for this to get done in a single contract is impossible. DAL was an improvement and the UAL TA scope carries the torch one step closer to the day when all flying is done at the mainline. The ALPA negotiators were not stupid, they knew full well that scope was THE single most important issue facing pilots today, and the scope clause reflects that understanding.
Plus the so called "no furlough" provisions only apply to current pilots, not any hew hires. So as the guys start retiring, the number of pilots protected decreases. It doen't even stay the same ... it decreases! If it said the same NUMBER of pilots on the property at DOS at least that would be something. IT says the pilots on the property at DOS.
11-22-2012, 06:02 AM
#52
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Posts: 5,416
Originally Posted by Coach67
I'll take Delta's Scope because their relaxation is tied to furture deliveries of A/C on order. If they cancel the order they get less RJ's. UAL has no orders to increase our NB Fleet.
11-22-2012, 03:21 PM
#53
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Position: Capt
Posts: 2,041
Originally Posted by Coach67
I'll take Delta's Scope because their relaxation is tied to furture deliveries of A/C on order. If they cancel the order they get less RJ's. UAL has no orders to increase our NB Fleet.
Plus the so called "no furlough" provisions only apply to current pilots, not any hew hires. So as the guys start retiring, the number of pilots protected decreases. It doen't even stay the same ... it decreases! If it said the same NUMBER of pilots on the property at DOS at least that would be something. IT says the pilots on the property at DOS.
Plus the so called "no furlough" provisions only apply to current pilots, not any hew hires. So as the guys start retiring, the number of pilots protected decreases. It doen't even stay the same ... it decreases! If it said the same NUMBER of pilots on the property at DOS at least that would be something. IT says the pilots on the property at DOS.
11-24-2012, 10:05 AM
#54
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Position: B756 Capt Junior Lineholder
Posts: 136
Originally Posted by CAL EWR
Put this in another thread. It's important so I decided to start a new thread so it doesn't get lost in the other scope thread.
The most important "Get" in scope that is industry leading and no one else has is the block hour ratio between all UEX flying (except block hours by 37 seat turbo prop aircraft) and UAL single isle aircraft. This provision starts at DOS. It starts at 120% and if the company exceeds 153 76 seaters after 1/1/16 it can ratchets down to 68%.
What does this mean? While it does provide for upward growth of mainline aircraft if the UEX fleet grows. It's real power and protections of jobs is if there is downsizing at main line. With this provision if UAL delays or cancels 737's they will have to park UEX flying to stay in compliance.
If UAL had this provision in the current contract they couldn't have parked the 737's or furloughed 1437 pilots.
Many think current CAL scope is better because of the 50 seat restriction and that is simply not true. Current CAL scope caps 50 seaters at 274. Above that there is a ratio to provide limited growth to CAL but no downward protection at all. This is exactly what happened after 9/11 (while that was under Contract 97 this scope provision was the same). CAL Mainline shrank significantly and Continental Express grew three fold.
1-C-1-f-(1) In any Rolling Twelve-Month Period ending the first full calendar month following date of signing of this Agreement or later, the Company shall not Schedule or permit the Scheduling of aircraft block hours of United Express Flying (excluding block hours operated by 37-Seat Turboprop Aircraft) exceeding the maximum percentage of Scheduled aircraft block hours of Company Flying on single-aisle Company Aircraft (“Max. % of UAXBH to SBH”) set forth in the following chart. Cells 1 to 8 state the number of 76-Seat Aircraft operated in United Express Flying (cells 2 through 8 show an
TA Page 3
increase in the number of such 76-Seat Aircraft if added under Section 1-C-1-g). Cells 9 through 16 state the Max. % of UAXBH to SBH that the Company must maintain based on the number of 76-Seat Aircraft in cells 1 through 8. The measurement for the twelve (12) months in any Rolling Twelve-Month Period shall be made on a weighted basis by the number of 76-Seat Aircraft in United Express Flying in each month.
Number of 76-Seat Aircraft Operated In United Express Flying


See TA page 4 under 1C1F to view sliding block hour ratio protection. I couldn't copy and paste it wouldn't format correctly.
Remember the Q400's count as 76 seat aircraft.
Jayson Baron
Council 170 Chairman
The most important "Get" in scope that is industry leading and no one else has is the block hour ratio between all UEX flying (except block hours by 37 seat turbo prop aircraft) and UAL single isle aircraft. This provision starts at DOS. It starts at 120% and if the company exceeds 153 76 seaters after 1/1/16 it can ratchets down to 68%.
What does this mean? While it does provide for upward growth of mainline aircraft if the UEX fleet grows. It's real power and protections of jobs is if there is downsizing at main line. With this provision if UAL delays or cancels 737's they will have to park UEX flying to stay in compliance.
If UAL had this provision in the current contract they couldn't have parked the 737's or furloughed 1437 pilots.
Many think current CAL scope is better because of the 50 seat restriction and that is simply not true. Current CAL scope caps 50 seaters at 274. Above that there is a ratio to provide limited growth to CAL but no downward protection at all. This is exactly what happened after 9/11 (while that was under Contract 97 this scope provision was the same). CAL Mainline shrank significantly and Continental Express grew three fold.
1-C-1-f-(1) In any Rolling Twelve-Month Period ending the first full calendar month following date of signing of this Agreement or later, the Company shall not Schedule or permit the Scheduling of aircraft block hours of United Express Flying (excluding block hours operated by 37-Seat Turboprop Aircraft) exceeding the maximum percentage of Scheduled aircraft block hours of Company Flying on single-aisle Company Aircraft (“Max. % of UAXBH to SBH”) set forth in the following chart. Cells 1 to 8 state the number of 76-Seat Aircraft operated in United Express Flying (cells 2 through 8 show an
TA Page 3
increase in the number of such 76-Seat Aircraft if added under Section 1-C-1-g). Cells 9 through 16 state the Max. % of UAXBH to SBH that the Company must maintain based on the number of 76-Seat Aircraft in cells 1 through 8. The measurement for the twelve (12) months in any Rolling Twelve-Month Period shall be made on a weighted basis by the number of 76-Seat Aircraft in United Express Flying in each month.
Number of 76-Seat Aircraft Operated In United Express Flying


See TA page 4 under 1C1F to view sliding block hour ratio protection. I couldn't copy and paste it wouldn't format correctly.
Remember the Q400's count as 76 seat aircraft.
Jayson Baron
Council 170 Chairman
11-24-2012, 12:47 PM
#55
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Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 215
Originally Posted by Trip7
UAL is also tied to future deliveries of a SNB. Read the TA, go to a roadshow, ask lots of questions!
<B>
1-C-1-a-(2) </B>
On or after January 1, 2014 United Express Carriers may operate United
Express Flying under the following limitations:
Express Flying under the following limitations:
1-C-1-a-(2)-(a)
37-Seat Turboprop Aircraft; and
1-C-1-a-(2)-(b)
50-Seat Aircraft, provided that ..... Fleet; and
1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)
Up to a total of 255 76-Seat Aircraft plus 70-Seat Aircraft (“76/70-
Seat Aircraft”), of which up to 130 may be 76
-Seat Aircraft, and then, on or after
January 1, 2016, up to 153 76-Seat Aircraft.
11-24-2012, 05:37 PM
#56
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Position: EWR 777 Captain
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Originally Posted by Coach67
Nope not tied to future orders ... they get up to 130 90 seaters configured with 76 seats starting in 2014 without one new NB. If they order new NB that number increases!
<B>
January 1, 2016, up to 153 76-Seat Aircraft.
I have read the TA and have gone to roadshows, and asked lots of questions! I just don't hear what I want to hear.
<B>
1-C-1-a-(2) </B>
On or after January 1, 2014 United Express Carriers may operate United
Express Flying under the following limitations:
Express Flying under the following limitations:
1-C-1-a-(2)-(a)
37-Seat Turboprop Aircraft; and
1-C-1-a-(2)-(b)
50-Seat Aircraft, provided that ..... Fleet; and
1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)
Up to a total of 255 76-Seat Aircraft plus 70-Seat Aircraft (“76/70-
Seat Aircraft”), of which up to 130 may be 76
-Seat Aircraft, and then, on or after
January 1, 2016, up to 153 76-Seat Aircraft.
11-24-2012, 06:03 PM
#57
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Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Originally Posted by Trip7
UAL is also tied to future deliveries of a SNB. Read the TA, go to a roadshow, ask lots of questions!
1-L-25 “New Small Narrowbody Aircraft” means a CS100, E190 or E195 aircraft, provided that such aircraft is neither in the Company Fleet as of the date of signing of this Agreement nor acquired through merger or acquisition of another air carrier.
Sect 3. Compensation-
MD80/90
737-500/700
CS300
EMB195
EMB190
CRJ900
Over at Delta, the "New" aircraft is the B717.
B717 Pays $183.98/125.65 12th yr Pay. Jan 2013
EMB195 Pays $154.48/105.51 12th yr Pay. Jan 2013
EMB190 Pays $131.42/89.75 12th yr Pay. Jan 2013
Notice, we DON'T have a payscale for the CS100 (even though it's listed as a NSNB Aircraft).
So.. we are down to EMB190/195
EMB195 Pays $142.38/97.24. 12th yr Pay. Jan 2013
EMB190 Pays $121.12/82.72 12th yr Pay. Jan 2013
So, lets be honest here.
This TA gives the company the ability to increase 70 seat aircraft as of Jan 2014 AND the ability to ADD 90 seat aircraft configured to 76 seats after Jan 2014.
[255 total 70/76 Aircraft, of which 130 may be 90 seaters configured to 76 seats initially]
It's only AFTER we add the "mystery NSNB Aircraft" that the company will be able to add to over 153 90 seat aircraft configured to 76 seat.
1-C-1-a-(2) On or after January 1, 2014 United Express Carriers may operate United Express Flying under the following limitations:
1-C-1-a-(2)-(a) 37-Seat Turboprop Aircraft; and
1-C-1-a-(2)-(b) 50-Seat Aircraft, provided that such aircraft do not number more than ninety percent (90%) of the number of single aisle aircraft in the Company Fleet; and
1-C-1-a-(2)-(c) Up to a total of 255 76-Seat Aircraft plus 70-Seat Aircraft (“76/70- Seat Aircraft”), of which up to 130 may be 76-Seat Aircraft, and then, on or after January 1, 2016, up to 153 76-Seat Aircraft.
1 C-1-a-(2)-(b) will allow for up to 488 50 seater. Based on United Fleet Plan, Oct 2012.
Single Aisle Aircraft = 543.
United currently flies-
15 Q400's
115 CRJ700's
38 EMB170's
That's a total of 168 Large RJ Aircraft (greater than 50 seats).
So, if this POS TA passes, the company can plan on adding 87 90 seat aircraft configured to 76 seats. as of Jan 2014. And also not remove any 50 or 37 seaters (yet).
With a total number of allowed UAX aircraft- 743. Yes, there are limits to the number of Block hours; UAX to SA Aircraft. But-
1-C-1-f Scheduled Aircraft Block Hours of United Express Flying as Percentage of Block Hours of Company Flying on Single-Aisle Aircraft
1-C-1-f-(1) In any Rolling Twelve-Month Period ending the first full calendar month following date of signing of this Agreement or later, the Company shall not Schedule or permit the Scheduling of aircraft block hours of United Express Flying (excluding block hours operated by 37-Seat Turboprop Aircraft) exceeding the maximum percentage of Scheduled aircraft block hours of Company Flying on single-aisle Company Aircraft (“Max. % of UAXBH to SBH”) set forth in the following chart.
Lets be honest here. We had a Rally Cry of
"United Against Outsourcing" I don't see it.
Allowing even ONE 90 seater configured to 76 seats is Concessionary.
Limiting UAX Flying (Block Hours) to our Single Aisle Block Hours IS A GOOD THING.
At the end of the day, Scope is a NO with regards to meeting my minimums. It is a good start, but needs some more work.
No 90 Seaters configured to 76 seats. They want them, we fly them.
Redefine "NSNB Aircraft" - EMB190's to A319's.
Provision to limit the amount of total UAX Aircraft.
Motch
PS> If my numbers are incorrect, please show me by citing section/para and/or document.
11-24-2012, 06:08 PM
#58
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Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 215
Originally Posted by Sunvox
Nope . . . not correct . . . block hours and weight restrictions wouldn't allow it. Try again. And for that matter why would you post something that incredibly wrong. Either you are truly not smart or willfully desperate to shoot the TA down for unknown reasons. So which is it?
You are deluding yourself if you think that the block hour restrictions are going to keep them from parking the 50 seats and replacing them with the 130 Ninety seats configured to 76 as permitted in the language in the JCBA TA.
1-C-1-f-(1) permits the Company to operate up to 153 of these 90 seaters configured to 76 seats as long as they keep the ratio of UAX to UAL NB's at 120%.
Note the definitions section of Scope where it says certificated for 90 seats but configured for 76 seats.
I'll post it again for everyone to read:
1-C-1-a-(1) On or after January 1, 2014 United Express Carriers may operate United Express Flying under the following limitations:
1-C-1-a-(2)-(a) 37-Seat Turboprop Aircraft; and
1-C-1-a-(2)-(b) 50-Seat Aircraft, provided that Fleet; and
1-C-1-a-(2)-(c) Up to a total of 255 76-Seat Aircraft plus 70-Seat Aircraft (“76/70-Seat Aircraft”), of which up to 130 may be 76 -Seat Aircraft, and then, on or after January 1, 2016, up to 153 76-Seat Aircraft.
1-L-29 “Regional Aircraft” means one (1) or more (including all) of the following aircraft (as
defined below): 37-Seat Turboprop Aircraft, 50-Seat Aircraft, 70-Seat Aircraft and 76-Seat
Aircraft.
“76-Seat Aircraft” means aircraft configured with more than seventy (70) passenger seats but no more than seventy-six (76) passenger seats, and certificated in the United States for ninety (90) or fewer passenger seats and with a maximum United States certificated gross takeoff weight of 86,000 or fewer pounds.
11-25-2012, 04:54 AM
#59
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 767-400
Posts: 797
Originally Posted by CAL EWR
Sorry about my tardy response it's been a very busy time period. I forwarded your question to our Scope guru. Here is his reply:
"The difference is that DALs ratio is event driven. IOW, their ratio begins at the arrival of their 154th 76 seat aircraft which is tied up to their B717s arrival. While DAL has apparently signed a purchase contract for those 717s, their BH ratio is not in effect until then, whereas ours is not event driven but rather in effect DOS.
"The difference is that DALs ratio is event driven. IOW, their ratio begins at the arrival of their 154th 76 seat aircraft which is tied up to their B717s arrival. While DAL has apparently signed a purchase contract for those 717s, their BH ratio is not in effect until then, whereas ours is not event driven but rather in effect DOS.
So in addition to the block hour ratio. There is also a requirement to 50-76 ratio for delivery and a ratio of 717 to 76 seat to deliver 76 seaters.
11-25-2012, 05:28 AM
#60
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Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
Originally Posted by BigGuns
In addition to taking 88 717s (or 9680 seats), Delta must park 150 50 seat jets (or 7500 seats) to take 70- 76 seaters (or 5320 seats). So in order for Delta to add 76 seat RJs they park 80 RJs equaling a reduction of 2180 seats.
So in addition to the block hour ratio. There is also a requirement to 50-76 ratio for delivery and a ratio of 717 to 76 seat to deliver 76 seaters.
So in addition to the block hour ratio. There is also a requirement to 50-76 ratio for delivery and a ratio of 717 to 76 seat to deliver 76 seaters.
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