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Originally Posted by SpecialTracking
(Post 1370133)
Struck a nerve? I think The Godfather is too busy to dirty himself with playground mentality.
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Originally Posted by thor2j
(Post 1369962)
While we are throwing groups under the bus, how about all the UAL hires that came straight from interns in college to UAL with almost nothing more then a commercial pilot license and a year of instructing in a piper warrior. Or others with no qualification that get to check a box that others could not on their UaL application through out the 90s.
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Originally Posted by SoCalGuy
(Post 1369948)
Flight Management Recruit
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Originally Posted by Maxepr1
(Post 1370141)
Nope, now it really makes me enjoy all your crying over all that has happened to you guys. Prejudice runs deep on all sides I accept that. This place will truly never be one. Look at all this group picking on thats happening. Torque still lives on but this time you guys are killing your own airline. One less airline this time will help American and Delta. You want to put blame on the way your life worked out? Look in the mirror, not at someone you perceive has done better. Boo hoo Special, Funny I bet Mako is a perfect gentleman when he needs a jump seat. 10 bucks says he won't ask the Captain what group he belongs to. I don't take back the face to face comment. I don't see any one with backbone here. Just whining and complaining and internet tough guys... Take it to the streets maybe to the line lets see how it works out for you? I'm looking forward to it...
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What is the purpose of all of this?
You bring your list to the table (scabs and all) with the order it is in and the people who are on it. We bring our list to the table (scabs and all) with the order it is in and the people who are on it. How the people got on the list (with the exception of the Saving Company Again Brotherhood Segment) is history and in the past. Our respective seniority lists as of the merger are what they are and they are in the same order they will be in after SLI. No pilot on their respective certified seniority list can be moved ahead of (or below) another pilot on that same seniority list when the final ISL is released. In other words, the pilot immediately senior to me will always be found senior to me wherever he came from and when, and the pilot junior to me will always be junior to me whatever his circumstances. Now the ISL may show L-UAL pilots between the three of us in their UAL seniority order but our seniority order won't change. Going back and trying to change agreements that were in place for hiring when the airlines were separate is ridiculous and a waste of energy. The order of our seniority lists is not going to change. Pass travel dates and seniority are two entirely different animals that have nothing to do with each other. I laugh when I hear these arguments because it just proves that pilots fall into management's game of creating sub-groups and divisions to pit employees against each other. Has been shown to work wonders in getting what they want. |
Originally Posted by EWRflyr
(Post 1370178)
What is the purpose of all of this?
You bring your list to the table (scabs and all) with the order it is in and the people who are on it. We bring our list to the table (scabs and all) with the order it is in and the people who are on it. How the people got on the list (with the exception of the Saving Company Again Brotherhood Segment) is history and in the past. Our respective seniority lists as of the merger are what they are and they are in the same order they will be in after SLI. No pilot on their respective certified seniority list can be moved ahead of (or below) another pilot on that same seniority list when the final ISL is released. In other words, the pilot immediately senior to me will always be found senior to me wherever he came from and when, and the pilot junior to me will always be junior to me whatever his circumstances. Now the ISL may show L-UAL pilots between the three of us in their UAL seniority order but our seniority order won't change. Going back and trying to change agreements that were in place for hiring when the airlines were separate is ridiculous and a waste of energy. The order of our seniority lists is not going to change. Pass travel dates and seniority are two entirely different animals that have nothing to do with each other. I laugh when I hear these arguments because it just proves that pilots fall into management's game of creating sub-groups and divisions to pit employees against each other. Has been shown to work wonders in getting what they want. |
Originally Posted by oldmako
(Post 1369957)
Future Managerial Rube
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Originally Posted by Wrsofked
(Post 1369475)
Here go's...until late 2001 early 2002 express jet (formerly continental express, all turbo prop until 1997) was a wholly owned subsidiary of CAL. Pilots from the original COEX all the way back to 88 (a few even more senior) flowed through to CAL in seniority order via negotiated flow through obtained by IACP representing both pilots groups as one MEC. CAL retained the right to hire from the street as well. CAL's list at the time would literally have 3 blanks and then a COEX's pilots name, even though that pilot was still at express waiting to flow through. That segment of flow throughs went on until the mid 90's. All those pilots kept their original hire dates for everything except bidding seniority, they were merged in to CAL bidding seniority when ever they actually transferred to CAL, with some back dating do to deferments related to express staffing.
Example....a guy hired at COEX in 1990 transferred to CAL in 1997, he effectively has a 97 bidding date at CAL, but retains his 1990 hire date for pass travel, sick bank, vacation accrual, and not sure but maybe some A Fund calculation as well. With now "express jet" still being a wholly owned subsidary,The next segment of flow throughs came from ALPA negotiated flow through tied to the influx of the RJ, once you completed IOE as an RJ captain, you were put in the pool of CAL new hires and were to transfer to CAL as class dates became available, with even more deferments due to staffing (during which these pilots accrued CAL seniority). This segment covered pilots from Express through mid October 1996. These pilots assumed CAL seniority from their original assigned CAL class date. Example...pilot hired at COEX in early 1996 flowed to CAL in 2001 was a 2001 hire at CAL, but retained 1996 for pass travel, sick bank, and vacation. Next segment was preferential interview group, covers the pilots that were in the CAL pool but never flowed due to the termination of the flow through because of CAL selling more than 51 percent of express jet. Also covers all pilots that were on the Express Jet list as of mid June 1998. All those pilots were given a preferential interview. If you were hired you flowed to CAL as class dates became available in express seniority order. You stayed in your express seniority merged in with the off the street hires in your class. Example a pilot hired at COEX in late 1997 interviewed and was hired by CAL in 2006 has a 2006 CAL hire date, but retains his original 1997 date for pass travel only. Bottom line is everybody is in seniority order from express back to the mid 80's. Clear as mud? Many of the late '80's, early '90's Express Pilots were not allowed to come onto the property until 1995 leapfrogging many of the mainline 1990 hires. By leapfrogging I'm not implying that they should not have been senior to the mainline hires its just that right after they came aboard CAL immediately furloughed and some of the mainline 1990 hires flowed back to Express. Bitter feelings on both sides of that one. A lawsuit of some sort was filed on behalf of the 1990 hires which didn't go anywhere. |
I don't know how it is in CO, but in good 'Ol UAL, most flight managers were where the Scabs hid out after the strike, there and the training center.
Super real quality individuals keep being hired to do the suckup work ever since. So, from our perspective, a FMR is most likely a Future Managerial Rube... |
Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald
(Post 1370266)
I don't know how it is in CO, but in good 'Ol UAL, most flight managers were where the Scabs hid out after the strike, there and the training center.
Super real quality individuals keep being hired to do the suckup work ever since. So, from our perspective, a FMR is most likely a Future Managerial Rube... |
Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald
(Post 1370266)
I don't know how it is in CO, but in good 'Ol UAL, most flight managers were where the Scabs hid out after the strike, there and the training center.
Super real quality individuals keep being hired to do the suckup work ever since. So, from our perspective, a FMR is most likely a Future Managerial Rube... I have some issues with the fact that they continued to earn seniority while away at the regional, but it is what it is; water under the bridge. My analysis is that because FMRs are pretty smart, intellectual, and driven (who else gets to the top 10% of their college class), they have tended to gravitate to management positions. It is worth mentioning that not all management guys are bad guys. As a matter of opinion, mine that is, most of the management guys on the CAL side are pretty good guys. I've met a few from the UAL side, and most of them are pretty good guys also. As for Future Managerial Rube, somebody has to be in management, and someone has to deal with the small percentage of pilots who can't hit their you know what with both hands, can't manage a cockpit, can't remember to get to work, can't stay off the bottle, or whatever. I've been at CAL for over 25 years, and have one or two unpleasant conversations with a management type. Most of the time, I let them know what I want/need, and usually they help me get it. Sometimes they explain why I can't have it, and that is OK too. |
Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald
(Post 1370266)
I don't know how it is in CO, but in good 'Ol UAL, most flight managers were where the Scabs hid out after the strike, there and the training center.
Super real quality individuals keep being hired to do the suckup work ever since. So, from our perspective, a FMR is most likely a Future Managerial Rube... I find it interesting that you take a group about which you clearly know NOTHING (FMRs), and hold them up as an objects of ridicule. |
Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald
(Post 1370266)
I don't know how it is in CO, but in good 'Ol UAL, most flight managers were where the Scabs hid out after the strike, there and the training center.
Super real quality individuals keep being hired to do the suckup work ever since. So, from our perspective, a FMR is most likely a Future Managerial Rube... |
I was pointing out that we also have equavalent FMR's on the UAL side. I do indeed know very little of the CO side. Before now, I had never even heard the term.
Objects of ridicule on the UAL side? Absolutely! Instead of calling them FMR's here, we just call them SCABS. |
Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald
(Post 1371014)
I was pointing out that we also have equavalent FMR's on the UAL side. I do indeed know very little of the CO side. Before now, I had never even heard the term.
Objects of ridicule on the UAL side? Absolutely! Instead of calling them FMR's here, we just call them SCABS. As for the Flight Managers (baby CPs), the ones selected at CAL are a pretty nice group of pilots, and have always been very helpful. |
Why even mention FMR and SCAB in the same sentence? They are not even remotely similar. |
Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald
(Post 1371014)
I was pointing out that we also have equavalent FMR's on the UAL side.
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Schindler's List guy here...to the original poster's question
I retained my date of hire at COEX (for pass travel etc..) when it was a WOS of CAL. 9/96. My hire date at CAL is 5/05 instead of the 02/02 date it was supposed to be, due to 9/11 and the furloughs back from CAL to COEX now XJET. The MOU was take it or leave it for the date of transfer. But like others have said, the lists of each respective airline are complete and the final SLI will determine who falls where. |
Originally Posted by vspeed
(Post 1371209)
Schindler's List guy here...to the original poster's question
I retained my date of hire at COEX (for pass travel etc..) when it was a WOS of CAL. 9/96. My hire date at CAL is 5/05 instead of the 02/02 date it was supposed to be, due to 9/11 and the furloughs back from CAL to COEX now XJET. The MOU was take it or leave it for the date of transfer. But like others have said, the lists of each respective airline are complete and the final SLI will determine who falls where. |
Schindler's List was a slang term used to describe the "saved" 118 total number of pilots that received the last "Flow Through" credits (except for payscale - pay was reverted to 5 year COEX Contract '97 pay until CAL 2002 rates caught up as opposed to the 10 year Captain rate most had at the time of flow-over - this was contrary to the prior flow through arrangement but was changed per the MOU) although roughly 30 passed on the guaranteed flow over before hiring began in 2005.
There is still bad blood around that entire deal, namely the P.I.G's who were the Preferential Interview Group, who lost all benefits of the flow over but the pref hire status. In reality there were over 300 in the list and an artificial dividing line was placed at the last pilot to complete both his CAL Interview and Sim Ride, the 118 were born, which was totally random in reality due to the company limiting when they were interviewing and offering sim rides and off the streets had priority over pool interviews from COEX. There were 3 ways to get into the hiring pool at the time, be the top 110, interview/sim in, or 2 year RJ PIC..but with the 3:1 ratio Off the street, most of us drowned in the pool at COEX and had to wait until the MOU was agreed upon. The Schindler's List guys/gals then went first to CAL when hiring began. WOS - Wholly owned subsidiary prior to the IPO |
Oh and then the Fox pilots came after the P.I.G's...
Fox chasing the PIGs, yep we had/have tons of factioned groups :) |
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