CAL vs CALex DOH
 

Would some L-CAL guys please enlighten us with the facts?

This should be good.

Here go's...until late 2001 early 2002 express jet (formerly continental express, all turbo prop until 1997) was a wholly owned subsidiary of CAL. Pilots from the original COEX all the way back to 88 (a few even more senior) flowed through to CAL in seniority order via negotiated flow through obtained by IACP representing both pilots groups as one MEC. CAL retained the right to hire from the street as well. CAL's list at the time would literally have 3 blanks and then a COEX's pilots name, even though that pilot was still at express waiting to flow through. That segment of flow throughs went on until the mid 90's. All those pilots kept their original hire dates for everything except bidding seniority, they were merged in to CAL bidding seniority when ever they actually transferred to CAL, with some back dating do to deferments related to express staffing.

Example....a guy hired at COEX in 1990 transferred to CAL in 1997, he effectively has a 97 bidding date at CAL, but retains his 1990 hire date for pass travel, sick bank, vacation accrual, and not sure but maybe some A Fund calculation as well.

With now "express jet" still being a wholly owned subsidary,The next segment of flow throughs came from ALPA negotiated flow through tied to the influx of the RJ, once you completed IOE as an RJ captain, you were put in the pool of CAL new hires and were to transfer to CAL as class dates became available, with even more deferments due to staffing (during which these pilots accrued CAL seniority). This segment covered pilots from Express through mid October 1996. These pilots assumed CAL seniority from their original assigned CAL class date.

Example...pilot hired at COEX in early 1996 flowed to CAL in 2001 was a 2001 hire at CAL, but retained 1996 for pass travel, sick bank, and vacation.

Next segment was preferential interview group, covers the pilots that were in the CAL pool but never flowed due to the termination of the flow through because of CAL selling more than 51 percent of express jet. Also covers all pilots that were on the Express Jet list as of mid June 1998. All those pilots were given a preferential interview. If you were hired you flowed to CAL as class dates became available in express seniority order. You stayed in your express seniority merged in with the off the street hires in your class.

Example a pilot hired at COEX in late 1997 interviewed and was hired by CAL in 2006 has a 2006 CAL hire date, but retains his original 1997 date for pass travel only.



Bottom line is everybody is in seniority order from express back to the mid 80's.

Clear as mud?

Don't forget the part where CAL pilots had a chance to fight for all pilots to be on one list thus gaining some control over the management tactic of whipsawing regional against major. Instead many fought against this and CalEx expanded going from 600 pilots to over 2000 with 274 RJs. CAL stopped hiring and progression stagnated then 9/11, then age 65. Never understood why the CAL pilots were so short-sighted as to let that opportunity to pass. It may have set an industry standard that could possibly have had an impact on what happened to UAL and their 737/70 seat debacle.

What years were Continental Express pay for training?

Pay for training?...Please tell me Continental Express wasn't one of those places in the 90's where "privileged" kids paid Flight Safety $10,000 dollars to get a job! ;)

Coex as well as most commuters during the mid 90's had PFT. A scourge on the industry for sure. Driven by lull in hiring and overage of pilots. The same "privileged" kids are
Getting hired today, (as if this industry has ever hired many "poor" pilots give me a break!) with the "aviation" (roflmao)degrees it's just cheaper for mommy and daddy.

Not all of the commuters had it. I know CalEx was PFT in 1996-1997. I just wasn't sure how many of the current CAL pilots fall into the group.

You mean Merger/737 debacle

Bingo.

(For a dramatic example, just count how many 70 seaters were added to replace the 737s on the 737 retirement timeline. Hint: if L-UAL was intending to replace 737s with 70 seaters they really screwed it up.)

Actually know all about it. I went through the FSI initial ($250) process in about 93'ish and was offered ASA,TSA, & NWAirlink interviews. Couldn't part with $10K so I ended up at a rinky dink scumbag commuter in GRI Nebraska with BE99's and 1900's (GPX). It had a "training contract" to reimburse if we quit. I quit after 1.5 yrs for a 727 job and never paid them. In 97' I was hired at UAL. Never once actually paid an airline to train me. I guess I was fortunate...Maybe.

IIRC, the COEX PFT was on a matrix of hours. The more TT and ME an new hire had, the less they had to pay.

Why would it even be an issue? UAL hired from regional carriers that had PFT through the 90's also.

xjtguy, It's an issue because apparently some from that group seem to think that the day Flight Safety got them their job at Continental Express should be the same day they were "hired" at United Airlines. I don't think so!

I know COEX, ASA, ACA, TSA which made up the bulk of the larger commuters were all PFT at some point. Eagle has never had PFT.

If I remember correctly, Continental sold it's stake in Express in 2001(ish) to effectuate the eventual merger nearly 10 years later. CAL was right-sizing it's operation. :rolleyes:

I thought that derailed mentality was pretty much squelched in the 2006-7 time frame?

Seriously, is it a large enough demographic that it would ACTUALLY affect the SLI?

IIRC, TSA wasn't PFT, the others yes. Including BIZEX, JSI (now PSA), COMAIR, EpressOne, (PCL), CHQ. AWAC didn't have it, at least not in the mid 90's till it went away.

No, I don't. No LCAL pilot was furloughed when CAL bought 274 RJs. Stagnation, but all kept their jobs. To go further, we were smart enough to get a flow back agreement tied to the flow through agreement. CALEX pilots came to CAL and in exchange, if there were ever a furlough ("that'll never happen") then CAL pilots (all of them, not just ex-CALEX) had rights to positions at CALEX by best DOH at either one. In the 2002 furloughs, only the most recent new hires could not hold positions at either, based on seniority, but most did. It would have been exceptionally beneficial if UAL had been able to secure these flow back rights when they entered their RJ buy, regardless of how many were bought.

I can't remember for sure, but I'm pretty sure UAL didn't buy any RJ's. UAX carriers were responsible for purchase/lease agreements. In the 90's it created a round and round with some of the then all turboprop carriers. Something like this;

UAL: hey express carrier, we'd like you fly regional feed for us
Express carrier: we don't have the planes to do it.
UAL: you'll have to get some more planes and we can't commit to any agreement till you have the planes to do it
Express: we can't really buy/lease planes unless we know for sure that we're getting a check.

That's how it went for 1 of the then 3 UAX carriers at the time. AWAC may have been different due the on again off again/make up-break up-make up-break up style of dysfunctional relationship they had :D

The best UAL ever got on a concession round was the pref-hiring at the UAX carriers, no DOH or seniority, etc.

I stand corrected on TSA, thought they were PFT. Thanks for the other additions.

Haven't heard that one at all. Relative +\- a few percent will be just fine.

I believe that TSA was kind of like GLA, or MESA so to speak.

And we have to keep in mind, it's ALL relative to the times of the mid 90's when the "regionals" tubo-uber-super sucked back then.

But you could save your $5-6K, apply to GLA, TSA, or MESA. But you would also be working under the crappiest conditions, the crappiest management, the lowest pay, etc.

What many don't realize is that PFT was almost a norm back then on the civilian track. Also, in the early 90's there were mil pilots separating with virtually NO legacies hiring. And the ones that were looking to stay current and couldn't find a local 91/135/corp gig did it as well.

Complete black mark on the industry.

Uh.....NO!...But how about LONGEVITY.. +/- a couple or so..:D

LOL! In all honesty, I totally get and respect the longevity argument, as long as it is tied to active service. Through no fault of their own, the furloughed LUAL pilots have had devastating setbacks to their careers. That being said, it's not the fault of CAL pilots that that happened. I think that will all play out in the intergration.

One SLI factor that never gets mentioned is Common Sense! While not being an official merger method, it will come into play when these committees put a list together. What makes absolutely no sense is a guy 99 percent in his company thinking he is going to be 60 percent in the new company...ain't gonna happen IMHO.

Anyway I'm so over these arguments..it really is wasted band width. The award will come in August. Then we can really start the whining.

They started in 1994. I missed the last non pay for training class and was offered a slot in the first PFT class.

How many of you anti-PFT guys bought a 737 type to apply to SWA? ;)

Supply and demand drives the industry at all levels; regional to major.
I'm not up on the whole PFT thing, but I heard it didn't buy you a job. If you failed, you were gone.

Guys, who paid for mary jane rotten crotch vs those who dated her really doesn't matter. The end result is the same. Right?

Regarding those who flew at Calex and moved over to Cal, it appears their mainline line seniority is the date they starting flying at Cal, and seniority for everything else is Calex. Is that it in a nutshell?

WHOA! It wasn't that bad! Mary Jane I mean. :D

Almost. I believe there were some (maybe they flew at Rocky Mountain/Bar Harbor or the other carriers who came together to create CoEx) who kept a DOH that predated showing up at CAL. Also, there were CoEx pilots who were hired and given a class date at CAL who were forced to stay at CoEx until sufficient replacements were trained. Those pilots DOH is their theoretical class date at CAL, though they didn't get trained until later.

That's a very PC way to explain it, lol.

X,

The latter group you mentioned. How large was that group and what was the general time span between class date offered and actually starting class?

Do you care to explain?

From what I can recall, yes. As far as dates go.

I believe that some never went over and stayed and are a part of the mysterious/super secret/illuminati/free mason group known as the "red circle" pilots :D

I'd venture to guess that the small group being referenced that may (or may NOT) be pushing for some kind of adjusted DOH is the SAME small group I made reference to before during the 2006 era. And IIRC, it was some of the "P.I.G.S."

Wasn't anybody from the ORIGINAL FTA, the amended (1 year in the jet) FTA, or the "Shindler's List". Everything seemed to work out just fine for them and they're probably long past caring about any DOH.

How about the MEC chairman - how does he fit into all this? I heard he was a COEX flowthrough as described above - but there were some other hijinks where he left to help start one of the undercutting upstarts. Go Jets or Freedom or something. The details are vague but it was explained to me that despite this he returned to CAL with his seniority intact.

If anyone can shed light on this - much obliged.

FMRs.

Ducks under the coffee table. ;}

Here I was thinking we had our special groups. What's a Fmr?

Flight Management Recruit

Future Managerial Rube

While we are throwing groups under the bus, how about all the UAL hires that came straight from interns in college to UAL with almost nothing more then a commercial pilot license and a year of instructing in a piper warrior. Or others with no qualification that get to check a box that others could not on their UaL application through out the 90s.

James care to say that face to face some day? Probably not, typical internet *****......

Struck a nerve? I think The Godfather is too busy to dirty himself with playground mentality.