Mind you, I'm not in favor of furlough's whatsoever, just stating how they have been historically looked at in past mergers and how the company views them. They make you turn in your books etc..in their eye's you aren't even an employee..merely a debt in the ledger for benefits they pay out...

well there is a valid argument. "if the company had their way, a layoff would be used...." Too bad for the company that we have a union contract. Furlough with recall rights is the rule. And with mandatory retirements, all furloughees will be back...if they so choose. And with LONGEVITY now in the mix, I reckon it's going to matter how many years active service these furloughees have/had, eh?

Sled

I admit that UAL brings more widebody flying to the table, but you act as if that is a reason to staple CAL! A fair integration will be had, I will live with it, and enjoy the rest of my career! Can you say the same???

Why don't you ask any of the regional guys where they would have liked to work if the merger had never happened?

Oh, this oughta be good. Do tell.....

Sled, I have no idea why that date is printed on every page (nor do I really care). Bid 12-03 would have come out in March, 2011. That's how CAL bids have historically worked. Perhaps there is some sort of error. I have no idea.

I am certain that both Merger Committee's have the correct data and are working day and night to put forth their best arguments. The best thing for you to do right now is to find a hobby and wait until August or September. Your perspective is neither interesting nor relevant. If it makes you feel any better, however, I will listen sincerely and compassionately to your perspective when you fly as my FO after the integration. :eek:

Recall to resume expectations as an active employee.

Not disagreeing on Active service on property either...

That's actually nor correct. EVERY furloughed United pilot in history was called back. Even the furloughs after 9/11 got called back.

Guess what, they are coming back NOW!

You are correct that for a few of them they will have some ZERO dollar paycheck years, but the top 400 in the UAL seniority list were all furloughed and they all had a great career after a short furlough because of the widebody flying United had and currently has.

But I'd be willing to bet that absent the merger, more UAL pilots would have been widebody Captains that CAL pilots who were active. That can be shown statistically and proven and furloughees ARE on the seniority list (which is what is being integrated) and they also have a career expectation.

They also have longevity, some more and some less.

The top 400 had a short furlough? What do you call short? The top 400 probably will have had a better career than you lax because they have a sack, but they have been hammered also, just ask them about that a plan.

"If their base structure and work rules were like ours, and every pilot that could actually hold Captain bid it, their junior Captain would be a 1994 hire."

Yup... don't forget to brag about your pre contract 12 payrates, and all the airplanes you had on order prior to the merger announcement.... oh wait, did you have any. Oh maybe I need to ask a Skywest or Republic guy about airplane orders and growing at the LUAL.

Come on guys... Let the arbitrator decide. You guys walked out of mediation so one can only assume it was not going well for LUAL.

Absent the merger, UAL would cease to exist in its old form. If you disagree, then you need to prove collusion on the part of both management sides to right size the airlines, which the arbitrator won't consider or concede to. The furloughs are coming back because of the merger, not because UAL emerged from its stubborn position of waiting for the industry to resume flying old widebodies domestically again, with Titlon hanging his thumb off the side of the road to anyone who would give him a ride to retirement.

Integrated, stapled...it'll all work out...in the end the main deal is everyone will get placed on the list and then we can get this behind us. For the most part, given attrition, retirements, growth, widebody fleet replacement...anyone on property will probably wiggle 2-3% either way from where they are relatively on their respective current list, save for maybe a few at the top and then we can move along. The key with putting these together is that everyone is treated fairly...you may not like everything, but the key again is fairness. Historical record and trend data usually sets the definition of fairness.

According to Jeffie....CAL was is big trouble without the merger.

The growth cal is currently going through is no more than what UAL brought to the merger. Jeff and company had better work rules with the cal guys and Pierce in their hip pocket or the flying could have gone the other way. All the 737 you are taking delivery of are for replacement not planned growth. Sorry, get the facts right.
Go back and look at what cal was - RJ outfit with RJ contract with no real respect except for CNBC because they were giving their families free tickets.

When Jeff was brought in to make the deal go down...that was probably true, given the industry's re-regulation of itself. He was referring to the mega-carrier size of the new Delta, potential American etc.. If we didn't pair up with a compatible partner given all the mergers prior, we would have been the weakling (size wise-not business model) when the dust settled.

Okay, I started reading your post and then you lowered into some childish name calling and ridiculousness.

By the way, you need to replace old airplanes before you can grow new ones...something old United wasn't too familiar with. Were you going to bring all that 'growth' to US Airways also in 2005-2007? It would have sure fit their paint scheme...3-4 different generations of liveries with a generous portion slated for the desert or third world service

How about this...

Take said senority list, CAL or UAL either works for experiment, invert then staple to other senority list.

He said CAL would "cease to exist".

Please post a link so I can read it in the context it was said

I know you had a point to make - would you edit and repost please.

It was before congress when he was trying to get the merger approved. You know his lips where moving... Heck I would say some crazy stuff too to get my $$$millions.

Here's the entire 4 hour and 4 minute C-Span transcript...

He never said CAL would 'cease to exist'...

Proposed United-Continental Merger - C-SPAN Video Library

LAX Pilot ??? Find it yet? You most likely won't ...this is a prime example of what you want to be true for a rationalized position/agenda and what is true

I'm with you! Let's stample all the cal pilots to the bottom of the UAL list. It's the only thing that's going to make everybody happy.

Source??? You part of the circle? Whatever!!!

How's this..?

The growth ual is currently going through is no more than what CAL brought to the merger. Glen and company had better work rules with the ual guys and Heppner in their hip pocket...

Sorry, get the facts right.

Go back and look at what ual was - Old tired widebody domestic outfit with RJ contract with no real respect ...

Gate swings both ways buddy...

OMG this is crap!!! Ok look at the 5 years before the merger announcement. What BS do you contribute to the growth then?

Jeffie was in big trouble without it--he wouldn't have made $14m that year. What else would a guy say with that kind of cash on the line? No thanks? It's not like he was under oath; he was pushing his agenda. Wall Street, however, was speaking with the clear voice of the marketplace--18% interest loans to UAL.

In all seriousness, and not directed at your personally, but what is the CAL "growth" that keeps being mentioned????

The CAL/sCAL fleet is virtually identical in size in 2005, 2008, 2010, and 2013 (these are the only dates I bothered to look up) and is actually smaller today than in 2008.

Tried to find in one of your older post but didn't you say that cal would have likely liquated without the money brought to the merger by UAL.
Not that it matters.

YEah...an error. That's the ticket. Or maybe that is what CAL pilots held in the August 2010 bid....which is AFTER the merger announcement. My perspective is neither interesting or relevant to YOU. Got it. As for my hobbies, evidently one of them is ****ing you off...hahaha. Lighten up Francis. I will bet you some good German beer that if you are one of those 05-08 CAL hires, you will be junior to me for the next 20 years! :cool: Enjoy.

SLedster

This may be what you're recalling.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ua...ml#post1314770

Merger was not official until the United shareholders voted for it 17 Sep 2010.

Thanks! The info is there.

you might want to read past merger awards regarding constructive notice dates and "snapshot" dates. Dal/Nwa is a good example. None that I know of have used the shareholder approval date, but you never know.

Sled

DAL/NWA used April 14, 2008, the MAD, as the constructive notice date. And July 2008, the date of the process agreement between DALPA and NALPA, as the "snapshot" date. (yes, it says "snapshot date" in the SLI award) Shareholders approved the merger in September.

Our MEC's have already agreed to a constructive notice date of MAD (May 2, 2010) in a Protocol Agreement signed by Pierce, Brucia, Morse, Ruark, and Prater on May 17, 2010 (the 25th anniversary of our stike). If the DAL/NWA precedent is followed, May 17th will likely be the snapshot date, since it is the date both sides agreed to the protocol. You can read this agreement for yourself. It is Attachment B in the T&PA.

Sled

Ok,... my growth... in my career. (nearly a 2000 number increase)We stayed the same size... replaced old airplanes with new ones, that were able to generate more RSMs because of increased usage / efficiency / more lines etc... replaced retired pilots with new ones... we did not take the path of LUAL. Please do tell how did it go for you?

Love hearing about how once you guys were 727 Captains and now your not... well at CAL, once we were 737 captains and now we are 756 captain... Same timeframe.... different results.

Funny how the LUAL guys always talk about how the SLI will be... never is it a LCAL guy starting the thread... we only respond to your hype and hysteria....

Good luck.
See you on the walk around.

step brother....

Another cal guy that believes what he reads on this forum. Still doesn't understand his position - please look in the mirror and say to yourself "I'm just a cal pilot" may have to say it a couple of times.

Sweet Jesus H. Christ, this place is gonna suck more than a tick on a two day suck for years to come. Give it a rest ladies!

+ 1 MILLION!!!!

The merger's done. The contract's done. The SLI (or ISL) will be decided by arbitrators....
Move on....
Don't agree with it all, but....:(

You all know this is misleading. Less than half the jobs you brought were Captain jobs. Most of those were 737 Captain jobs. There are some 757 and 777 but not that many.

Just because you let it go very junior, doesn't mean everyone there can hold those seats.