CAL Express DOH question
 

When Express pilots came over to the mainline, they weren't given any credit for their longevity at Express for equipment bidding....right?

For example....a guy hired at Express in 1990 who came up to the mainline in 1999 wasn't senior to everyone hired in the previous 9 years at CAL, was he??

If I have this right, then mainline CAL didn't give them longevity credit for time at Express. How then can we be expected to give longevity credit for years spent at Express when CAL didn't even give it to the Express "flow through" guys??

I'll try to keep this as simple as possible. It involves many different programs CAL had going! The way many UAL pilots are thinking the program worked is that there is only one. Which is not true, there were 3 to 4 of them. First, Longevity/Seniority are two different issues. 1 program late 80's pilots accrued both Long/Sen. Then in later yrs mid to late 90's guys just accrued Long for pass travel only. Then, finally the last batch was just give pref interview. The only group that was given Sen. on the CAL Sen. list was late 80's guys. Not sure why guys are so hung up on this since pilots at CAL are ordered in SEN order to when they came to CAL except for some 80's CALEX hires to the 90 CAL hires. So if you took time on CAL property and readjusted CAL list with 80's CALEX and 90 hire's it would change CAL list but would not have real effect on SLI list since your replacing one group with the other!! Also, if you want to take time on property and hire date, do we go back to MID-80's(both sides) and adjust all their seniority? Or look at the furloughed guys(both sides) and adjust their longevity to time on property? Lots of ?'s! CAL's list is ordered in time on CAL prop. with exception to the 2 examples I gave above!

Thanks for the explanation.

It seems like the guys hired in the 1990's were definitely NOT building longevity credit at the mainline, but the 1980's guys might be a different story.

I read one opinion by our lead arbitrator that stated Express time does not count, but that was another merger.

August can't come soon enough. I'm sick of thinking about this!

I don't know if this is the case for CAL and express, but there is also a situation where longevity can be applied for sick and vacation accruals, but not bidding seniority or pay. You would start over at the bottom when coming to mainline, except that you'd be able to bring over your short and long term sick time.

Yes and No. Did some pilots accrue Longevity credit for sick/vacation in 90's yes. However, I'm not sure what group and for what programs. (Longevity being KEY word i.e.- sick, vacation) But, NONE accrued Seniority past the late 80's group.(and even that was a relatively small group) I was part of this group and was placed behind some 90 hires. Thats why when you look at our list you see 89 and 90 hires mixed up! I hope this helps you understand the programs better! I couldn't agree with you more about getting it over with!! I truly believe it's going to be OK, the only people that are going to be really miserable are the people that are always miserable!!;)

Digging deep into the muck, I believe sick bank and vacation accrual were part of the Flow Through Agreement of Contract '97. Anybody that flowed to CAL prior to 9/11 took their sick bank, vacation, and current Express pay rate for compensation. The flow through formerly ended in '03 (?) when CAL spun off XJT. There was one final group hired in 2005 that came in under the FTA that were part of a negotiated ending of said FTA.

The convoluted history of the guys hired in the 80's that accrued seniority at CAL is beyond my time. I've heard both sides of the argument and it makes my head spin. Suffice to say that this small group's existence has somehow been blown up to the urban legend that every Express pilot expects his Express DOH for SLI purposes.

My first Flight at Express was with a guy that was on his last flight. He was going from 1900 capt. To 8 year MD-80 F/O. He kept all of his longevity, vacation, etc... He had only flowed at Express

AKA Schindler's List.

Untied - this is a mute issue as far as the negotiating committees for both sides are concerned. As it turns out the cal guys were trying to piggy-back the express guy to the cal guys senority just in front of him on the cal list. Giving the express guy super senority over the UAL guy that would follow the cal guy.

During the rebuttal phase, the cal side is set to lose big because of cal's overreach on stuff like this. Ultimately, hurting cal's overall position and causing them to appear even more greedy than was thought. The cal negotiating committee is ready to start shedding-off the groups they used as fodder in the posturing phase. You cal "special interest groups" should start calling your LEC rep's and let them how you feel about being used as fodder. It's time for pierce to sell you out! Are you surprised given pierce's history?

Like any of this pontification matters.

It makes some feel better to argue over what they can't control. Maybe a coping mechanism?

Except to shed light on some glaring events of the past three years.

The majority of the posts for SLI are nothing but arguing and fighting like a bunch of kids in my opinion. Also, a good portion of the posts are opinion and conjecture spoken like facts to either incite or smear or vent anger. The kicker, even if all was 100% true, is it doesn't mean a thing except cause two pilot groups to hate each other and help the company keep failing to succeed. Only glimmer here is the same posters keep posting the same garbage and it is not everyone, I hope.

As for me, I am ready to get this done, take my licks and have fun flying with everyone or whatever airframe.

You must have had your head in the sand - didn't you know what you MEC was doing, otherwise, you must have agreed with their anti-union actions. I don't see you trying to hold them accountable. You guys just don't have a clue - You can't steal and expect to be invited to dinner. Live with your making - it'll last career long just like the rife you've had at cal. It must be blind fear of your pilot leaders causing you cal guys to think this way.

Thanks you prove my point.

Must not have - you guys continue to act as it your mec's actions are the way things are supposed to be done. We may not end up like USAir and America West and we should thank ALPA for that and the new merger policies for that. Pierce and the cal MEC has done much to paint the cal group in a bad light but you know that - don't you?

I think your REAL issue is Pierce and the CAL MEC completely out maneuvered/Negotiated your MEC(this was said to me by a UAL furloughee)!!:rolleyes: I've never met someone so consumed by one person or entity in my life!! All your posts try to cut them down but, in the eyes of people that don't know much about him! You're making him out to be some SUPER SUPREME leader thats controlled everything over the past 2 yrs from profit sharing to world hunger!! Please don't stop posting though, I do find you very entertaining!!;)

Not at all - The airline industry will continue to treat the cal pilots for what they've been known for - I won't us the words but won't stop others from using them. Not such a bad deal - you guys have been known for these types of actions for years and should be use to the less than stellar treatment. The cal pilots are responsible for the anti- union actions of your mc and MEC. So don't feel like you are picking on for no reason -

A list of factual events without arguing one side or the other. A list of events that show a pattern of anti-unionism at best. A list of events that were offered outright support or support by act of omission. You even have the temerity to say even if it was all true, it doesn't mean a thing. It does mean something. I contend that we will have to deal with this behavior/mentality for the balance of our careers, and therefore will be hard to dismiss. Does this rise to the level of hatred? Absolutely not. It rises to the level of one shaking their head and uttering the words.."really?"

A company will fail or succeed on it's own merits. We are simply blue collar labor that fill seats to safely operate an airplane.

Are you really attempting to equate bankruptcy proceedings to the current merger environment? You, my coworker friend, are a lost cause.

I've been a Cal pilot for over a decade and the rest of the Airline industry treats me great! I have jump seated home on another airline for over ten years and have been warmly welcomed. As a matter of fact I just ran into an old co worker who told me he wished he would have been lucky enough to get hired at CAL because his career has had so many setbacks. You are delusional :-/ :eek:

Very good post! I've always been treated very well by other airlines. I have NEVER been thought of as a SCAB. Of course, I'm not one.
Am I supposed to be treated poorly? Because if I am, the entire industry is failing.

And here we have the winners - Still lying to themselves after all these years. You do understand the difference between perception and reality - right?

So special are you going to judge me this same way or the even the whole CAL pilot group like some have? A group that has nothing to do with the arbitration? That is my point.

Btw...employees make companies too. We all want fair treatment by mgmt but we can and do make a difference even if mgmt can't do the right thing. You know that?

You guys like to make up excuses. Why don't you accept responsibility for your mec's actions. We are going hold you accountable.

Okay hold me accountable then. I'm quaking in my scab bubba boots as to just what that might mean. If it means guaranteed silent treatment from your yap on a 4 day then call me Jay Pierce!

Staller,

No excuse here. I want my MEC to do their job, even if you disagree with them but for you told hold me personally accountable is a bit silly. I spoke with and heard Heppner speak in IAH with your furloughees. He was not real warm is putting it lightly and was pretty disparaging about is CAL guys. Should I hold you accountable for your MEC's actions then and now. I disagree with your proposal for sure but guess what, you or 99% of your fellow pilots didn't write it or present it so how can I really blame you?

Are you going to hold me accountable for our CEO since he was CAL? Just as some can try and blame all the yes or no voters for the contract and how it hurt them. It doesn't matter now since it is what we have and WE have to make the best of it. Unless you like to be bitter and angry and always want to hate us at CAL?

When I walked down the airport terminal and saw a United crew I would look down in shame and envy. When I taxied behind a Jumbo my heart sank knowing I would forever be stuck flying my small jet. All I ever wanted to do was give up my Continental career for a United one.

Unfortunately, my MEC's actions have upset you. I tried to stop it. I called my MEC and told them how powerful and respected a United pilot is. I told them, they have the jumbo and were once the highest paid pilots in the industry. I was adament our MEC should do everything it can to help these honorable mighty United pilots. after all, they have lost so much! ... Did I mention they have the jumbo?

And now, my worst fears are a reality, I am being held accountable by a LUAL pilot on a public Internet forum.

Darn!

"Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience".

Surprised you maintained your "train of thought" but you did and I'll give you that. You sounded a little insecure but that's understandable given your history. Give you a tip - when you walk thru the terminals, walk with you head high and eyes looking ahead. You cal don't normally don't do that - dead give-away of insecurity.

You're the guy wanting to put Tilton's name on the side of United airplanes. I may be wrong but you also supported larryiah's position of not supporting our troops in harms way. You'll never be allowed on my airplane "jay pierce"

Wow.......such bravado. I'm awed and impressed.

You guys make it hard to like and want to get along with. Have you noticed that in 3 years we went from equals to the cal side sinking to new lows. We watched as the phony profit sharing happened, your mc speaking to the press against the UAL pilots for wanting training equal to the United training programs, UAL pilots expending negotiating capital to bring cal up to a modern contract, pierce delaying JCBA and trying to negotiate SLI during JCBA negotiations and going outside ALPA merger policy for a senority grab. People know what the cal mc and mec has done. I've said it before - you can't steal and expect to get respect.

You didn't have to go that far - a simple "Thank You" would have sufficed.