Deny NAI Again
11-17-2014 | 07:27 PM
#31
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,488
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From: tri current
I tell you the traveling public will care a lot when those minimum wage pilots end up with a hull loss and loss of life because they were fatigued on a maximum duty day with no work rules, pressured to fly an unsafe plane or they'll be fired and another low cost worker replace him.
To everyone else, this guy must not have a job flying. He's a management stooge or college professor not in the real world. He seems to lack a horse in this race. Just my opinion. Not worth debating anymore.
Still worth taking a few minutes to get the E-mail sent to your reps. Just do it.
To everyone else, this guy must not have a job flying. He's a management stooge or college professor not in the real world. He seems to lack a horse in this race. Just my opinion. Not worth debating anymore.
Still worth taking a few minutes to get the E-mail sent to your reps. Just do it.
Clearly you do not know me, but that's okay. I will not enter a character or experience debate with you. Suffice it to say I have a little bit of airline experience (26 years) and am current on the B777 and B787.
.....and again you show you do not know what you are talking about when you make a statement like "minimum wage pilots....". The crews of NAS, and NAI in the future, are mainly Europeans with EASA licenses. The initial batch captains have significant B747, B777, and B767 command time. The F.O.s they have hired also have significant experience. To infer that they are somehow inferior to U.S. pilots is just another specious argument.
EASA flight and duty time regulations are superior to the U.S. FARs so fatigue is far more likely at a U.S. carrier than at a European carrier.
.....and again, I am not all for NAI it's just that if you are going to somehow win this argument you've got to have good points against them. There has to be a logical and legal reason to block them other than the emotional sound bites I keep seeing posted here.
TP
11-17-2014 | 07:51 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: 75/76 Right
I tell you the traveling public will care a lot when those minimum wage pilots end up with a hull loss and loss of life because they were fatigued on a maximum duty day with no work rules, pressured to fly an unsafe plane or they'll be fired and another low cost worker replace him.
To everyone else, this guy must not have a job flying. He's a management stooge or college professor not in the real world. He seems to lack a horse in this race. Just my opinion. Not worth debating anymore.
Still worth taking a few minutes to get the E-mail sent to your reps. Just do it.
To everyone else, this guy must not have a job flying. He's a management stooge or college professor not in the real world. He seems to lack a horse in this race. Just my opinion. Not worth debating anymore.
Still worth taking a few minutes to get the E-mail sent to your reps. Just do it.
It's everyone else that is getting emotional and disregarding facts. Yourself included.
11-18-2014 | 04:01 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 908
Likes: 0
From: 737 fo
It's not ridiculous. The main point I am trying to drive across is that you guys are debating with sound bites that sound great to like minded people, but sound rather selfish and pointless to the people who are going to make the decisions in this matter.
It's perfectly legal for a U.S. corporation to incorporate in any State they choose. It is also perfectly legal for a European company to set-up a subsidiary wherever they choose.
The other great one is NAI's or NAS's pay. How many South American, Eastern European, African, and even Asian carriers fly to the USA employing crews on substantially lower pay than U.S. carriers, and in fact lower pay than Norwegian?
Then you talk about Singapore contract agencies and outsourced crews. Ummm, American has flight attendants based in South America on 1/3 the pay of their U.S. counterparts. Kind of hypocritical to point fingers at another airline that takes advantage of employing crews in different countries with lower pay structures when U.S. airlines are doing it themselves.
TP
It's perfectly legal for a U.S. corporation to incorporate in any State they choose. It is also perfectly legal for a European company to set-up a subsidiary wherever they choose.
The other great one is NAI's or NAS's pay. How many South American, Eastern European, African, and even Asian carriers fly to the USA employing crews on substantially lower pay than U.S. carriers, and in fact lower pay than Norwegian?
Then you talk about Singapore contract agencies and outsourced crews. Ummm, American has flight attendants based in South America on 1/3 the pay of their U.S. counterparts. Kind of hypocritical to point fingers at another airline that takes advantage of employing crews in different countries with lower pay structures when U.S. airlines are doing it themselves.
TP
11-18-2014 | 05:47 AM
#34
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,681
Likes: 62
typhoon,
If they are not trying to avoid oversight or pull a sleazy scam on labor, why go to all the trouble of their corporate structure?
I understand that the taxes may be high in Norway and labor laws restrictive, but why not just do all of it out of Ireland? Don't they have low corporate taxes?
This guy makes Lorenzo look honorable. Why can't he just pick one country to incorporate in, employ from and operate from? He wants to have very little oversight so he can cut corners, maintainance, labor, etc(maybe not today, but after it's well established). It will be tough for any regulators to police a outfit like that.
If they are not trying to avoid oversight or pull a sleazy scam on labor, why go to all the trouble of their corporate structure?
I understand that the taxes may be high in Norway and labor laws restrictive, but why not just do all of it out of Ireland? Don't they have low corporate taxes?
This guy makes Lorenzo look honorable. Why can't he just pick one country to incorporate in, employ from and operate from? He wants to have very little oversight so he can cut corners, maintainance, labor, etc(maybe not today, but after it's well established). It will be tough for any regulators to police a outfit like that.
11-18-2014 | 10:49 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
I got a response from my senator. My take is that isn't a done deal by any stretch.....Durbin from Illinois writes....
"Thank you contacting me regarding a Norwegian airline foreign air carrier permitting issue, and the subsequent legislation to address it. I appreciate hearing from you.
Norwegian Air International recently submitted a foreign air carrier permit application to the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) to operate within the United States. If approved, Norwegian Air International could be in violation of the U.S.-European Union (EU) Open Skies agreement that increased access to U.S. and European markets for commercial airlines while promoting strong safety, labor, and working condition standards for airlines and their employees.
Opponents argue that the Norwegian Air’s subsidiary carrier would employ third-party pilots through individual employment contact that will contain wages and working conditions that put our domestic carriers at a labor cost disadvantage. In addition, this situation would raise serious questions about the training, safety, and experience of airline pilots that would be operating within the United States.
To address these economic and safety concerns, Senators Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Brian Schatz of Hawaii have introduced Amendment #3262 to the Senate appropriations bill for various federal agencies, including the Department of Transportation (H.R. 4660). The proposed amendment would not allow the U.S. DOT to approve Norwegian Air’s permit until the airline complies with the labor and safety requirements in the US-EU Open Skies agreement. A similar legislative provision was included in the U.S. House of Representatives appropriations bill in June 2014."
"Thank you contacting me regarding a Norwegian airline foreign air carrier permitting issue, and the subsequent legislation to address it. I appreciate hearing from you.
Norwegian Air International recently submitted a foreign air carrier permit application to the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) to operate within the United States. If approved, Norwegian Air International could be in violation of the U.S.-European Union (EU) Open Skies agreement that increased access to U.S. and European markets for commercial airlines while promoting strong safety, labor, and working condition standards for airlines and their employees.
Opponents argue that the Norwegian Air’s subsidiary carrier would employ third-party pilots through individual employment contact that will contain wages and working conditions that put our domestic carriers at a labor cost disadvantage. In addition, this situation would raise serious questions about the training, safety, and experience of airline pilots that would be operating within the United States.
To address these economic and safety concerns, Senators Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Brian Schatz of Hawaii have introduced Amendment #3262 to the Senate appropriations bill for various federal agencies, including the Department of Transportation (H.R. 4660). The proposed amendment would not allow the U.S. DOT to approve Norwegian Air’s permit until the airline complies with the labor and safety requirements in the US-EU Open Skies agreement. A similar legislative provision was included in the U.S. House of Representatives appropriations bill in June 2014."
11-18-2014 | 11:18 AM
#37
Redeye avoider
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 933
Likes: 14
From: 737 Captain
I got a response from my senator. My take is that isn't a done deal by any stretch.....Durbin from Illinois writes....
"Thank you contacting me regarding a Norwegian airline foreign air carrier permitting issue, and the subsequent legislation to address it. I appreciate hearing from you.
Norwegian Air International recently submitted a foreign air carrier permit application to the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) to operate within the United States. If approved, Norwegian Air International could be in violation of the U.S.-European Union (EU) Open Skies agreement that increased access to U.S. and European markets for commercial airlines while promoting strong safety, labor, and working condition standards for airlines and their employees.
Opponents argue that the Norwegian Air’s subsidiary carrier would employ third-party pilots through individual employment contact that will contain wages and working conditions that put our domestic carriers at a labor cost disadvantage. In addition, this situation would raise serious questions about the training, safety, and experience of airline pilots that would be operating within the United States.
To address these economic and safety concerns, Senators Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Brian Schatz of Hawaii have introduced Amendment #3262 to the Senate appropriations bill for various federal agencies, including the Department of Transportation (H.R. 4660). The proposed amendment would not allow the U.S. DOT to approve Norwegian Air’s permit until the airline complies with the labor and safety requirements in the US-EU Open Skies agreement. A similar legislative provision was included in the U.S. House of Representatives appropriations bill in June 2014."
"Thank you contacting me regarding a Norwegian airline foreign air carrier permitting issue, and the subsequent legislation to address it. I appreciate hearing from you.
Norwegian Air International recently submitted a foreign air carrier permit application to the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) to operate within the United States. If approved, Norwegian Air International could be in violation of the U.S.-European Union (EU) Open Skies agreement that increased access to U.S. and European markets for commercial airlines while promoting strong safety, labor, and working condition standards for airlines and their employees.
Opponents argue that the Norwegian Air’s subsidiary carrier would employ third-party pilots through individual employment contact that will contain wages and working conditions that put our domestic carriers at a labor cost disadvantage. In addition, this situation would raise serious questions about the training, safety, and experience of airline pilots that would be operating within the United States.
To address these economic and safety concerns, Senators Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Brian Schatz of Hawaii have introduced Amendment #3262 to the Senate appropriations bill for various federal agencies, including the Department of Transportation (H.R. 4660). The proposed amendment would not allow the U.S. DOT to approve Norwegian Air’s permit until the airline complies with the labor and safety requirements in the US-EU Open Skies agreement. A similar legislative provision was included in the U.S. House of Representatives appropriations bill in June 2014."
11-19-2014 | 06:57 AM
#39
Moderate Moderator
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,681
Likes: 0
From: Curator at Static Display
Can't; have a trip.
What is sad from ALPA's last email prompt: out of (my estimate) 35,000+ pilots represented by ALPA, barely more than 2,000 have written their legislators.
I've written mine three times in the last three weeks. Twice they were my own words; once ALPA's form letter.
There is the axiom about the squeaky wheel....also, persistence pays off. Anyone who is married understands.
What is sad from ALPA's last email prompt: out of (my estimate) 35,000+ pilots represented by ALPA, barely more than 2,000 have written their legislators.
I've written mine three times in the last three weeks. Twice they were my own words; once ALPA's form letter.
There is the axiom about the squeaky wheel....also, persistence pays off. Anyone who is married understands.
11-19-2014 | 01:37 PM
#40
Thread Starter
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 985
Likes: 65
Can't; have a trip.
What is sad from ALPA's last email prompt: out of (my estimate) 35,000+ pilots represented by ALPA, barely more than 2,000 have written their legislators.
I've written mine three times in the last three weeks. Twice they were my own words; once ALPA's form letter.
There is the axiom about the squeaky wheel....also, persistence pays off. Anyone who is married understands.
What is sad from ALPA's last email prompt: out of (my estimate) 35,000+ pilots represented by ALPA, barely more than 2,000 have written their legislators.
I've written mine three times in the last three weeks. Twice they were my own words; once ALPA's form letter.
There is the axiom about the squeaky wheel....also, persistence pays off. Anyone who is married understands.
Any way a moderator could move this to the Major section?
Last edited by jdt30; 11-19-2014 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Add
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