Not really. Yes those exact seats are fenced, but when a LCAL 757 or guppy Captain upgrades to Sparky, that opens a 757 or Guppy Captain for anyone to bid. Same for all those 747 bids. Yes the direct bid sucks, and we should not have fences. I understand why they proposed it though.

The other tradeoff is that Sparky is very junior. Seniority 6,000 on the seniority list would be about 30% in any base on Sparky. Same guy on the 747 is on reserve.

Here's paragraph B-5 of the Arbitration Decision.

Maybe you've decided that any potential 777-300ER delivery will be in place of and before current 787 deliveries. If that's you're basis of claiming that fences will be extended, I have to say that's a pretty bold statement considering that there's been no official announcement of the rumored order. That's a shocking display of bravado on this forum. :rolleyes:

Why did they propose it? Not baiting you at all, just curious as to why they proposed it...tia.

Have no idea. But, it is what it is.

Are you guys really getting hot and sweaty over 10 potential wide body orders that are, for sure, replacements, and not growth, at the same pay scale?

The idea was to keep the pilots in their base doing the same flying they were doing before. So it was really a base fence and not as much an equipment fence. It was designed to stop UAL from displacing guys in IAH and then having new bids no a new equipment or what happened in LAX where guys were forced to leave base and can't bid the same routes they had been flying for years.

The CAL guys actually proposed the 747 UAL / 787 CAL fence. That was their proposal during the rebuttal phase. It was their opportunity to change their proposal, and that was the change they asked for.

Like I said, its all done in December most likely, and I don't like that kind of flying, so I don't really care, but I know a lot of guys were uprooted because of the fences seeing more junior people doing work they used to do.

"You mean having more pilots making the higher pay is bad? "

Pilot 64 has it right.

If one holds the theory that there is some max pay bag we can win and how it is split up is what negotiations gets to decide, then maybe kilder is almost right.

Or one can say all pilots are getting less, just some are getting more or less than others.

Oh and some keep bringing up the idea these 777s may delay the 25th order. Personally I'd rather have more 777-300ERs than 787s. No what I really want is for all international airplanes to have a decent bunk room. 787 qualifies and I know the 777-300ER can also be equipped in such a way.

Yeah I think the fence is done as well. Parts and interiors are ordered way out, and UAL's 787's are probably a done deal for at least 12 months. Nobody else would use them and the interiors are already ordered and being produced.

Ah it's not coming this year. Pretty sure the koolaid slide I saw was Feb 2016. Also after 25, there is over a year delay until #26. Quite simply vacancies after #25 will largely based on attrition. And recent events could very well change all of this. We shall see.

...Only in response to the UA MC designed precipitating C&R proposal, to which the Arbs made reference to in the Order and Award. We wouldn't have fences if the UA MC hadn't made their initial argument.

"Pilot career expectations are driven in important part by fleet composition dictation of available status and categories. On the basis of the foregoing facts and conclusions, we judged the widebody fences of the UAL Committee unduly complicated, inequitable and overreaching. We adopted, with some modification, the CAL Committee's more streamlined proposal to fence, for five years, B787 widebody flying for premerger CAL pilots and B747/A350 widebody flying for premerger UAL pilots."

EKN pg. 43