Let's make something out of nothing...
 

Yeah that stores is so off base, everyone knows that United has the finest training in the industry. No shortcuts there!

Once upon a time, in a galaxy far far away, a bright light was shone upon the "training by memo" farce. It was summarily dismissed by many. Sadly, it was dismissed by many of the dudes and dudettes who were to become the recipients of the memos, and also by their leadership. It now appears that some of the chickens are beginning to circle the roost.

(Insert furrowed brows and hand wringing here)

Training, you tend to get what you don't pay for.

Why is this even a story when the better one is that Southwest had to ground 128 jets this week for missed inspections? Mind boggling.

The SWA grounding thread is already 3 pages and counting.

For an inspection that was;

1. Not required, but done by SWA nonetheless.

2. Two of three items were completed on this unrequired inspection.

3. Because the third was not, SWA self-disclosed and grounded the a/c.

4. The FAA looked at the incompleteness of the un-required inspections (get it?) and said "Meh, fly 'em until you get it done".

All of it making headlines. I believe THAT is mind boggling.:cool:

What is there to self disclose on a non mandatory event? That's like someone self disclosing to the police that they DIDN'T steal a car.

Because - and try to keep up here - SWA chose to complete a non-required mx item. When it wasn't done fully (when they indicated it would be) they self-disclosed.

Media gets ahold of it and = **** storm.

Can you believe the MEDIA would embellish something like this?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I can see more headlines in the future for United with our "new" new normal checklists. On the 756, the FO has to recite all kinds of stuff on the before takeoff that is set on the MCP, and some that is not- such as the name of the SID- however only one pilot now confirms the flap and landing gear configurations.

So much for cross checking and verify on the really important stuff. Another DENTK *&(%(*^

Yeah, this is the most ridiculous iteration of our checklist, to date. I'm not sure what the pilot briefing is for if you're going to recite all that shizzle just before takeoff. I do appreciate them getting rid of that phase-line in the Before Push checklist, though.

Yeah, what's in the FMC and MCP is totally not important. Let's focus more on checking the altimeter setting at least two or three more times from the T/D to landing. Why check things like the correct departure, the cleared altitude, heading, LNAV, VNAV... just say "set" and it's clearly all good.

On the landing gear and flaps, everyone is still confirming it. Yep, DENTK is the problem. Been through the 737 course lately?

Scott

See this statement here is why we got a nasty gram that made world news. The new checklist is fantastic in my opinion we need to cross check all that stuff. How many times have you taken off without LNAV selected? I have done it. How many times have you taken off with a discontinuity in the FMC? I have done it. Lets say 10 more words in 5 more seconds and protect ourselves. Being lazy should not be in a pilots job description yet its the norm that I see, and being on property for only a year and a half I'm disappointed. I have had to read MELs to CAs because they thought they knew what it said and didn't want to look it up. Guess what? they didn't know what it said. I have watched CAs and FOs not do the proper ETOPS checks because "It is pointless busy work since we have ADS-B and CPDLC". Guess what? We got another nasty gram.

Lets stop playing the CAL and UAL hatred games and finger pointing and stand up for ourselves, come together, and take this memo as a battle cry against the desk jockeys in management.

NEW HIRES:

By the end of this year we will be 10% of the total pilots on property WE need to help make the change. WE need to speak out on what we think is right and wrong. WE need to hold all of our crew members to SOP even if they don't like it. Most of the pilots we fly with are fantastic but there is a larger majority then I would like that are lazy, complain and refuse to change and adhere to current SOPs.

New Hires, we don't know nor should we care what the old SOP said all we know is what it says now and how we were trained. So do what you were taught to do and don't accept any variations! We can change this culture so lets get on it.

Oh and wear your ALPA pin. Its an easy place to start.

Oh and what pilot does not look inside at 500 or so feet and check the flaps are set and the gear is down and three green. Even when we both said it on the checklist I looked again. Who cares who says DOWN for the gear check it your self and STOP BEING LAZY!

Not having LNAV selected isn't a safety of flight issue... SOP calls for either HDG SEL or LNAV to be selected at 400' AGL...so what's the big deal?

Your right it isn't a big deal however the new checklist has you check it and I think that is a good thing. Not checking it because it is an extra checklist line is LAZY.

You don't think checking altimeter settings are important? I'll bet the guys that screwed up not setting it and thus got violated might disagree. I have always learned a lot in the 737 school house, found the training outstanding.

Sounds like your fleet has gotten the Delta treatment. They do that same thing, and because we unoriginal we just copy them.

What you brief at the gate IS NOT the same as what is on the before T/O. At the gate you brief the ENTIRE departure, ENG out procedure, RTO/EVAC, planned WT and speeds andspecial situations.

The Checklist verifies that everything you briefed is STILL set and executed. You know because ATC never changes the plan we briefed......

Curious how long this thread continues?? Dolts!

As long as one side enforces their legacy way of doing things versus the right/safest way.

Worst training I've had in 20 years at United.

Sure, we should set and check the altimeters. I think that once might be enough, though. We should also probably confirm what is on the route page and set on the MCP.

Scott

Scott;
You are spot on, and reading the SID, verifying modes, MCP, and altitude was not only L-UAL's way, but it is industry standard. Boeing has it in their procedures I believe, and Airbus published procedures call it a "Mini-brief".

I can't believe it went away in the first place.

The other thing I can't believe is these "safety events" haven't been disseminated to the pilot group. Have we gone backwards in aviation and safety culture and now try to hide our mistakes?

What are we becoming? Maybe we should be in the press.........

I know that checking it multiple times has saved me in the past. Did you go to training with the same anti everything LCAL that you display on this forum? I can see why you had problems.

It wasn't too long ago guys were complaining about wearing hats; now you complain about checklists. I wear that stupid hat, I do the checklist. It doesn't matter how stupid I think it is, I do it. Years ago when UAL tried to harmonize the check list across fleets, the checklists were really stupid. If you don't like the checklist, become a PI and spend the day arguing about why you think they should change the checklist. In the meantime, just do the check list and talk about more important things like the Profit Sharing Grievance we won and when the lUAL guys are gonna get a financial settlement.

While the idea that I must have had problems in training to have a valid opinion about its quality blends seamlessly into your narrative, it isn't true. I did just fine. I think it is also disingenuous to insinuate that I must have a wholly anti Cal perspective to criticize anything when in fact, I found most of my experiences with the pilot instructors, my LCA and the flight attendants I've flown with so far to be exceptionally good. That doesn't mean that we aren't dropping the ball WRT to the 737 course.

We have (as a collective pilot group) had some pretty close calls. A 767-400 landing with under 20 minutes of fuel in Guam. A 737 scraping a wingtip in EWR. Airplanes landing with emergency fuel after accepting direct routings into the jet stream and overflying acceptable fuel stops when the fuel situation became critical. Close CFIT incidences. We better start looking at least a little bit inward WRT to the way we're doing business as a pilot group.

Scott

Sleeves,

We aren't bashing Cal. There were some items removed from the before takeoff checklist that we knew had saved us a lot of heartache in the past. It got to the point that standards capts during pc's were telling us even if it's not on the checklist we need to continue checking the mcp and fmc before takeoff. I'm done with the us vs them. I only want is right and the safest.

You're kidding right?

Uhmmmm.....

You might want to re-check that.

400' is where you select a roll mode on a missed approach. Takeoff is different.

Amen...they are paying you $200,000 to fly the plane, just fly it the way they want you to, take your paycheck and go home. Is it that hard to respond to altimeters? Sometimes I just have to shake my head at airline pilot problems.

Why try to improve anything? Just cashing a check, right? Well played. We could have easily had 3-4 hull losses in the last 2 years. Tough to cash a check then. Especially tough to worry about things like profit sharing.

Is checking the altimeter for the 3rd or 4th time going to make it all better? Getting back on topic....

The organizational failure in quality training and standards is giving the safety reporting department lots of job security. Training since the merger has been dumbed-down, over simplified, and spoon-fed .... without consequence (when was the last time you had any kind of oral exam during a check?).

The point of this thread is; UAL internal memos show that flying solely based on the way they train you to can be inherently unsafe.

So your beef is checking the altimeter twice instead of checking it only once? Isn't it more conservative and thus more safe to check it twice? Do you want more safety or not?

Or checking the MCP for the 3rd or 4th time??? So which way do you want to go?

Diminishing returns. If 2 is "more safe" than 1, then 3 is "more safe" than 2! Therefore, we are being "less safe" by not checking it 3 or 4 times. Why not just add it to every checklist? Check it every 1,000' in climb and descent.

How many times do we need to check an altimeter? If you checked once and its where you wanted it, and no one changed it, it should still be the same.

If your argument is "well maybe they missed it the first time" then that is a different problem altogether. The risk is also that they could have the proper setting the 1st time, but they change it to a wrong setting the 2nd time. So maybe a 3rd check will check if they did that.

How many times do we need to check the MCP?

BTW, on the approach descent you check only the altimeter, on the approach you check altimeter and minimums.

You can argue it's an annoyance but can't argue safety because if anything it errs on the safe side. And if you are arguing for checking the MCP more than once you can't argue against this practice either.

I just keep checking everything every second. The Captain usually asks me "why won't you look at me when you talk to me" and I say "because it interrupts my scan of every switch, light, instrument and read-out in the cockpit."

Hey, I like the way you think.

The Captain usually asks me "why won't you look at me when you talk to me"............... Oh, Nevermind ;)

Every time you change something on it

Altimeter, MCP, and all the other bells, whistles, and switches - I'll probably look at them at least another half dozen times between the gate and the runway.

Once I get to the runway, I'll check and double check that I see the right runway, and that the jet is expecting that runway in the FMC, and that that the mag compass agrees just incase the Earth's magnetic field changed overnight. I'll look at a myriad of other things that aren't in the FOM, FH, or on the checklist. Why? Because I'm safer than you! :D

Like an ADHD teenage girl on her period, this thread keeps missing the warning that training is creating a culture and cockpit workflow that diminishes SA and CRM and is replacing it with an emphasis on procedural steps. Once they started removing the meat from the FOM and FH, and replacing it with "how to enter a holding pattern" type filler we've been on a downward slide.

For any pilot who's been doing this for a while, it's probably not an issue. But, for the new-hires, upgrades, and mixed-legacy crews at the new company and flying a new aircraft on new routes with new procedures, safety reporting says it is an issue. It's a cultural issue that flight ops management is so far behind on that they'll be lucky to even identify the problem before it's a smoking hole. Then there's flight ops the credibility issue, even if they did come up with a reasonable plan, who would listen?