DAL TA: Question for United Pilots.
 

Our TA has a lot of concessions. (Profit sharing, scope, sick leave usage, seat locks, etc.)


Did you guys/gals have a lot of concessions in your new contract, too? If so, what were they?

Thanks.

Oh NO! Ours was a great win! Industry leading! Just ask The MEC chairman.

Our contract had concessions in it. But, remember, it was a merger contract. UA vs. CO vs. MGT vs. NMB. Yours is not this, not even close!

The biggest concession, in my view, was scope. From 70 to 76 seaters. Which we were forced to take by the NMB because Delta took that concession. A lot of the other things I see as concessions had to do with merging. This limited our leverage severely. If you guys can't get an awesome contract now, no one will.:(

Having read the Delta TA highlights, I see no reason to vote no. New hire seat locks? 50/50 block hours ratio on code shares (current UAL contract), shrinking DCI overall but adding 25-70/76 seaters for 50 mainline 90/95 seaters? No deal killers there. I don't really understand the SL changes from reading the TA changes (but it says it won't affect 2/3 of the pilot group) and the profit sharing change is questionable....but the pay rates and the fact that it's early? Slam dunk in my opinion. The good times won't last forever. I'd lock it in. Good luck!

Sled

I think our SL program is better than yours.

OUR Profit Sharing went down and is lower than yours. We have the same idea as yours with 10% for a portion and then 20%, but we agreed to have the higher portion based on a profit Margin number rather than a specific dollar amount, so as total revenue went up so did the amount of profit we had to achieve to get the higher payout. I think with our formula your guys profit sharing payout would have been about 75% of what it was for 2014. So, our current program would be ever so slightly above what your TA program is proposing.

From what I have seen, the give in the area of Scope is the much bigger deal. While that would take you down to what we have, it looks like a major give to me. To give you an idea of how bad it can be, we currently have a Lufthansa A380 flying LAX-FRA, a 747-800 flying LAX-FRA, and an A340 flying LAX-MUC and we don't have any metal on either of those routes!!!!

So, while we have swallowed that pill already to get past the merger mess that we were in, I would not recommend it. I was really hoping to get our scope up to your level in the next contract because this area translates into the Widebody Jobs!

Ironically, we have a major campaign going on to stop the MiddleEast carriers from "stealing" our work, but I guess it is ok to give our jobs away if the company is going to get the revenue.

I realize the payrates are quite nice with your TA and that makes it very tempting, but unless you are really senior and don't care about the Widebody jobs, you definitely should get as much info on that Joint Venture/Scope give to make sure what your total benefit/cost is when you consider the potential loss of Jobs up the food chain and the associated lack of movement. Higher pay but a lack of movement may end up resulting in similar or worse W2 than lower pay but good movement.

Profit sharing? Scope? Thats a little advanced for us. (2 years Jeff?)

But hey, while you are here. Do you guys fold checklists?

Yes. Yes we do.

You're dang right. Those checklists are folded, and it might cost me a penny or 2 in profit sharing.

If the preflight checklist is longer than one quarter of a page, it's not a fleet I need to be on.

I respectfully disagree! There is NO reason for ANY give regarding scope!!! Scope is our jobs! It doesn't matter what your hourly rate is, if you don't have a job. I don't think that DAL should cave on anything at a time of HUGE profitability. They certainly shouldn't be coming down to our level. They should be increasing the scope restrictions. There is a reason why management agreed to the pay raises, because they already have a plan. Maybe the conversation should be, "since we're taking a haircut on profit sharing, we want stricter scope language"?

As for the regional scope, they are just helping out their regional partners. Lowering the amount of regional airplanes by such a modest amount is going to happen anyway because their regional partners are having difficulty filling classes. I would like to see deeper cuts in regional airplanes and no more 76 seat airplanes.

They're also losing valuable work rules. Removing trips from the trip pool because IOE. So that the Company doesn't have to buy off pilots to use their trip for OE. Only modest increases in training pay and vacation pay.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is still a lot work that can be done to benefit their pilots and our industry. I hope that they vote it down and go back into Section 6. It's not like they have a bad CBA, and I believe that this TA could potentially be worse than the deal that they currently have. Just my $0.02!

Airlines are feast or famine. Right now a massive feast is going on. Billions in profits, stock buy backs, etc etc. pilots took big cuts and had a lot of stagnation over the last 15 years. Delta pilots should go after a lot more, they deserve it.

And when we open up, wouldn't you rather have our negotiators going in and saying, hey delta pilots have less RJs, and get paid 30% more than us, better PS, better sick leave, instead of just marginally better than what we have now. It would make our gains that much better.

Monkey is right, a JCBA vs. CBA are two different animals.

The UPA provided many QOL improvements for the LCAL side, while giving the LUAL side a bigger pay bump. We conceded an increase in gauge for UAX from 70 to 76 seats because we were patterning off you guys (thanks BTW:roll eyes:). However, we also closed up a lot of loopholes in scope and made the UAX footprint smaller while growing mainline, much like you guys did.

WRT your TA, the increase of 25 76 seaters for the parking of 50 50 seaters lowering the cap to 425 from 450 is good, however, the regionals are getting drained as the big 3 hire 100+ per month each so I think you guys are doing management a big favor with this. Also, we go into section 6 in less than a year and I know our management team are drooling over more 70/76 seaters since they are already up against the cap. We didn't get 717's like you guys so management is stuck at 255 70/76 seaters.

For the record, and it is relevant to this thread: as a LCAl pilot(777) our current contract did not improve my QOL one iota. The new reserve system sucks for widebody guys compared to before. The new trip trade system(while good in theory) rarely allows a trade and almost never allows a trade other than day for a day. In my previous cal contract if the trip ran a day late, you got your day restored with 150%... now you lose the day off. The pay scales are nice. Deltas new pay scales look very good. But, i see alot more pilots clawing there way to 89+ hrs than ever before. I agree with someone who said it earlier in the thread that the company cant find a way to manipulate the payscales...but i didnt sign on to be an airline pilot so i could work myself to death....

Just for the record, a majority of the pilots voting(CAL and UAL) thought it was better to approve the JCBA and move on. That's a positive that outweighs most of your complaints don't you think?

SMH. Completely unsuprising take and entirely representative of the 55+% that ALWAYS vote yes.

Unfortunately for you the work rule improvements for the guppy pilots was substantial and there were far more of them to out-vote you. One of the inherent things about being a widebody pilot is that the schedules are inherently more efficient because of the longer legs.

Allenallert and Pilotgolfer,
We are mostly on the same page. Our JCBA is what it is, and it was necessary to get it done when we did for our common unity. But, I mentioned my being a 777 guy to point out that not everyones QOL improved with this JCBA.
Regarding pay, IMHO our Union and industry have made up alot of lost ground since the "post 911" contracts, but as far as QOL...not so much.

+1 agree with above

A contract negotiation is a two way street (unless you're in bankruptcy). There are solid gains for the DAL pilots in this TA, and yes there are gains for the company as well. Just like with Contract 2000 at UAL. Huge gains for the pilots and some give on rest rules and scope (held to 50 seats contrary to popular belief). It is my opinion (and evidently the opinion of their MEC) that the pilots should vote on this contract proposal. That is all. I don't vote yes for everything, I weigh the pros and cons. This seems more pro than con. JMO

Sled

Why would you ever vote yes on the first TA well before a deadline?

First rule of negotiating, never take the first offer. There is always something left on the table if you do.

That's absolutely not true.

My above statement got me accused of "cherry picking" in a different forum/thread, so here is how the crappy JV/scope language UA has translates into actually flying. These are the flights between UA hubs and LH hubs

LAX - LH a380,748,a340 --------- UA nothing
SFO - LH a380,a340 -------- UA 744, 744
DEN - LH 744 -------- UA nothing
IAH - LH a380 --------- UA 777, 764
ORD - LH a340,748,748 --------- UA 763,777,777
IAD - LH a330,744,748 --------- UA 764,777,777
EWR - LH 748,a340 ---------- UA 777,764

and also Our co-terminals and former hubs

JFK - LH a330,a380,748 ---------- UA nothing
SEA - LH 744 --------- UA nothing

so without even including JFK or SEA they have 25% more flights and if you compare the two based on seats it is closer to 50%!!!

This is why i would suggest to DL pilots that, unless you are already a 777 Captain (who doesn't give a shoot about those junior to him), you should be avoiding this TA like the plague. It is a widebody job killer rivaled only by the ME carriers. Vote NO!!

Totally agree +1

They are certainly passionate on the subject. Just one thread on the Delta TA section has over 9,000 posts and over 1,000,000 views. Check it.

Delta TA - Airline Pilot Central Forums

We need to pay close attention to what's going on there because if they ratify that POS, we'll be dealing with their decision. Here's to hoping they vote that POS down!!!!

The DAL negotiating committee is on the take and their MEC is a ship of fools! It's a POS because APC forum members say so!! Vote er down! ;)

I am guessing you take the first price on a new car too?

Not even a close comparison.

Plus I don't buy new cars. I buy them 3-5 years used for half the price. Let the guy who bought the "new" car take all the depreciation.

The line pilot is not the negotiator. It's been through the neg comm. and the MEC.

The analysis people completely fubar'd the LCA buyoff analysis with certainty... Kept it 1 dimensional while it is multi-dimensional game theory.

DOH!

Hey Delta, can we have our management and dispatchers back?
0

BMEP 100? You got a bad jug........And no, we love pain....

Double shorted secondary.

I think it depends on three things:

who you are negotiating against

past track record of contract success/failure

record of truthfulness displayed internally and externally (trust factor)

Can someone point to a link for the actual Delta Ta pay chart? The link above has 1002 pages. I gave up trying after 50 pages...

if you have access to United Pilots Forum there is a handle PPT presentation that shows pay differences at all the airlines...

The .ppt I've found has only 12 year pay comparisons. Looking for the TA paychart.

Thread bomb incoming...


The ONLINE roadshow.com

Very impressive webshow work!

Thank you. Please let your Delta buds about it. The union won't publish material to the group from LECs that don't agree with the TA sales job. Just trying to get the bar set as high as possible. Our TA missed.